Search:
Submit Search


Delayed trem

A discussion forum for anything even marginally Hauptwerk-related.

Delayed trem

Postby engrssc » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:24 pm

Not sure where to ask this. There are some digital organs that will play a solo stop legato until you hold it for approx one second before the trem/vibrato begins to effect it. Is that at all possible with Hauptwerk? Very nice effect.

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5484
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Delayed trem

Postby mdyde » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:08 am

Hello Ed,

It would technically be possible for a sample set producer to implement that in an organ definition. That said, I've never heard of a real pipe organ that has that feature (since real tremulants usually modulate the wind supply of a division/rank's wind-chest as a whole, so to implement it in a real pipe organ you would either need one tremulant per key and wind-chest per key, or inter-key linkages and require the stop to be played monophonically, if a single tremulant and wind-chest was used for the whole rank), but perhaps some real pipe organs do exist with it. A delyed LFO is certainly a common feature in synthesizers.
Best regards,
Martin.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]

Image
User avatar
mdyde
Moderator
 
Posts: 10644
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
Location: UK

Re: Delayed trem

Postby josq » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:13 am

It might be possible in Reaper (which is used by many Hauptwerkers). I recently have been looking into a quite advanced functionality of this program named "parameter modulation". I realized one of the applications could be using a LFO to simulate tremulant behaviour (by applying a waveform to amplitude, pitch and harmonic content) , though I have not yet bothered to actually try it out, because I don't expect realism with wet sample sets (just like the Hauptwerk tremulant model, as contrasted to sampled tremulants).

Nevertheless, parameter modulation could potentially be used to simulate a couple of effects that are not yet possible in the Hauptwerk tremulant model, including varying the tremulant speed and a delayed/gradual onset of the tremulant.
Last edited by josq on Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
josq
Member
 
Posts: 717
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Delayed trem

Postby mdyde » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:31 am

josq wrote:a couple of effects that are not yet possible in the Hauptwerk tremulant model, including varying the tremulant speed and a delayed/gradual onset of the tremulant.


Just to clarify, it would also technically be possible for a sample set creator to implement those in an organ definition.
Best regards,
Martin.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]

Image
User avatar
mdyde
Moderator
 
Posts: 10644
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
Location: UK

Re: Delayed trem

Postby engrssc » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:37 am

While I've not seen this effect available within a real pipe organ, nevertheless it is the way real instruments (case in point - a violin) are played. 8)

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5484
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Delayed trem

Postby Grant_Youngman » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:11 am

You could add a Leslie cabinet or two to your sound system and get that "Hammond" sound :D :mrgreen:
Grant
User avatar
Grant_Youngman
Member
 
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:50 pm
Location: Savannah, Ga

Re: Delayed trem

Postby engrssc » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:20 am

Unfortunately the Hammond/Leslie sound are sounds I really don't like at all.

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5484
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Delayed trem

Postby magnaton » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:20 pm

Here is an idea, auto detect a piston to the Tremulant stop and make sure the "Momentary piston" box is *unchecked*. This way when you press the piston the the trem engages then turns off when you release it. I just tried it using a my swell piston #1 so it's within easy reach of the either hand. Nice results! I saw Hector Olivera do something like this at a concert on a large Schantz organ.

To take it a step farther, you can add a toggle switch on the expression pedal like what you find on modern theatre organs that use it for sostenuto. Arndt organ sells these.

Danny B.
Last edited by magnaton on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
magnaton
Member
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Delayed trem

Postby engrssc » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:18 pm

magnaton wrote:To take it a step farther, you can add a toggle switch on the expression pedal like what you find on modern theatre organs that use it for sostenuto. Arndt organ sells these.


I have one of these momentary switches on the left most expression pedal that I do use for sostenuto which could be used. Was hoping there would be a more 'elegant' way to do it via software. Say apply the trem/vibrato after the note was held for something like one second or more.


Using a side kick switch to be effective, there would need to be a selective trem for each manual involved like a sol,o manual. Would work if a single note solo stop were played..

Appears that these 2 Hammond expression pedals have the side toe switch available on eBay for a good price. Assume the switch(es) could be mounted/transferred to another expression pedal. Not sure about using the photo cell circuit for expression, tho.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-of-HAMMOND-ORGAN-VOLUME-SWELL-PEDAL-H-100-MIDI-PROJECT-VINTAGE-EXPRESSION/253417440711?hash=item3b00db45c7:g:bHEAAOSwCtJaMHhb

Image

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5484
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Delayed trem

Postby ldeutsch » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:28 am

Everyone,

Those of you who are also model railroaders know there is a an adage that goes like "If you look hard enough, there is a prototype for everything."

In fact, I have seen and heard a pipe organ with the delayed vibrato feature! It no longer exists, though. It was a theater organ in the California Bay Area during the era when it was popular to have such instruments in pizza restaurants. This Wurlitzer had been fitted with a stepping really and multiple physical trem motors so that you could press a switch and the tremulant would come on gradually. It was meant to simulate the effect of turning on the old trems on a Hammond organ. It was quite an interesting effect.

However, it was very complex probably a maintenance nightmare. I have never seen another one.

Les
User avatar
ldeutsch
Member
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Chatsworth, California, USA

Re: Delayed trem

Postby engrssc » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:59 pm

In doing some searching (browsing), I found this in regards to exactly the type of effect I was referring to. This is from another virtual organ software, not Hauptwerk.

The samples for the soundfonts are taken from real pipes, but there are a couple of stops that are not pipe samples. On the Solo, there is an orchestral oboe that is actually a sample of someone playing the oboe. If you hold the key down, vibrato sets in after a second.

So it isn't just commercial digital organs that can do this. So there must be ways to do this effect, maybe outside of Hauptwerk. It would appear that sample set producers could make this available, yes?

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5484
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Delayed trem

Postby mdyde » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:27 pm

Hello Ed,

As I wrote in my original reply in this thread, yes -- a sample set producer could potentially implement it in Hauptwerk.

Presumably they haven't done so because current sample sets aim to model real pipe organs, rather than real string instruments or synthesizers, and it isn't a feature normally found on real pipe organs. (Hauptwerk's primary focus has always been on modelling the behaviour of real pipe organs too.)
Best regards,
Martin.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]

Image
User avatar
mdyde
Moderator
 
Posts: 10644
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
Location: UK

Re: Delayed trem

Postby engrssc » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:02 pm

Hi Martin,

Totally understand and to a point agree. Problem is when trying to compete with features that these other organs have. Organ committees, esp in churches, tend to go with what they hear and many times are not purists in the sense of wanting true virtual pipe organs. They are into more modern music, and I don't mean praise bands. I experienced this in my 3 last attempts to promote Hauptwerk. One such committee told me real authentic sounding pipe organs are from the past as are carburetors in cars. Today we use fuel injection.

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5484
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Delayed trem

Postby TheOrganDoc » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:37 pm

I agree with you 100% Martin, anything that will help to provide more realism, I am all for ! ! ! :D

[quote="mdyde"

As I wrote in my original reply in this thread, yes -- a sample set producer could potentially implement it in Hauptwerk.

Presumably they haven't done so because current sample sets aim to model real pipe organs, rather than real string instruments or synthesizers, and it isn't a feature normally found on real pipe organs. (Hauptwerk's primary focus has always been on modelling the behaviour of real pipe organs too.)[/quote]
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
User avatar
TheOrganDoc
Member
 
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: South East, Florida, USA

Re: Delayed trem

Postby mkc1 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:46 pm

engrssc wrote:In doing some searching (browsing), I found this in regards to exactly the type of effect I was referring to. This is from another virtual organ software, not Hauptwerk.

The samples for the soundfonts are taken from real pipes, but there are a couple of stops that are not pipe samples. On the Solo, there is an orchestral oboe that is actually a sample of someone playing the oboe. If you hold the key down, vibrato sets in after a second.

The organ in question is that of St. John the Evangelist in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, which includes other such gems as:

Fog Horn 16
Klingon Battle Horn 8
Butt Rumble 32
mkc1
Member
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 7:47 pm
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Next

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest