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Limiting Volume Control

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Limiting Volume Control

Postby Antoni Scott » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:14 am

The nice feature about "Auto Detect" is that you can attach the sliding volume control on the sample set screen shot to the balanced expression pedal on the pedal-board. The volume control range is 1-100%. When I link my balanced swell pedal to this slider, the slightest movement on the swell pedal makes too big a change in the total volume.
What I would like to be able to do is limit the wide volume change of the slider to say from 100% to 75% with a complete sweep of the balanced swell pedal. That way I don't get dramatic volume changes that I now experience. I do see that I can go into the expression drop down menu and adjust the volume from 126% to I think 26% (I'm not at my console to see). I've fiddled with this feature for years and basically gave up. Is what I am asking, possible ?
When I play, sometimes I want a single stop to stand out (say the Bourdon or Harmonic Flute) just for a passage or two. I could go into the menu and increase the volume of the entire stop but it would be too loud for other combinations. So my interest is to just adjust the volume using the slider.

I also want to change (limit) the ratio of quiet to loud, of an actual expression chamber that is on a sample set.
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby engrssc » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:05 pm

What resistance value is the pot on the expr ped? Optimum is 20K linear. taper, not audio taper.

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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby organsRgreat » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:41 am

I have an old swell pedal – intended for a Casio keyboard – which has a rotary potentiometer in addition to the one operated by the pedal. I think the two pots are in series. If you had something like that, and started by setting the rotary pot to maximum, then auto-detected it in Hauptwerk; then put the rotary pot to minimum, the pedal would only control part of the range.

It's difficult to explain, but the idea would be to get Hauptwerk to respond to a total change of, say, 20k; then alter the total resistance to say 10k. Then Hauptwerk would only be seeing part of the range.

How do you convert the resistance of your pot into the MIDI signal Hauptwerk needs? There might be a MIDI box which could scale the settings?

I'm a musician – computers are a hobby – so I hope the above makes sense!
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby Antoni Scott » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:33 pm

I could limit the range of my slide potentiometer by attaching it closer to the fulcrum. The sweep of the volume pedal would be normal but the range of the potentiometer would be reduced. I thought about doing that but it might take a great deal of experimenting and endless micro-adjustments to get it where I want. I was hoping that I could do it by just changing numbers in the software.
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby organtechnology » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:32 am

Antoni Scott wrote:I could limit the range of my slide potentiometer by attaching it closer to the fulcrum. The sweep of the volume pedal would be normal but the range of the potentiometer would be reduced. I thought about doing that but it might take a great deal of experimenting and endless micro-adjustments to get it where I want. I was hoping that I could do it by just changing numbers in the software.


You do have some interesting problems :)

If you set up the pedal for 100% travel such that when your heel is all the way down the pot is at minimum and with the pedal fully depressed the pot is at maximum value, then Hauptwerk will operate the Virtual control from zero to 100% without regard to the actual pot values Hauptwerk measured.

Then if you manually change the minimum value to the upper value measured by MIDI learn minus the lower value of MIDI learn times 75% plus lower value of MIDI learn, the virtual control should not react to the pot until its value exceeds the value in the minimum box. ((UV-LV) x .75)+LV

The catch is that the control you want to move must respond to a right click by the mouse or it will not work. Since I am not completely clear on what control you want to move with the pedal I must leave this for you to explain.

I did try one of the rank voicing masters and it ignored the right click from the mouse.

So which virtual control are youtrying to command with the physical pedal?

Best regards,

Thomas
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby organsRgreat » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:42 am

Regarding your desire for a particular stop to stand out during a short passage. If this usually happens with the same sample set, and if it is always the same stops, then it should be possible to program “duplicate” stops that you could voice to be louder. So if the Bourdon is one of the stops you sometimes want louder, you could duplicate it as Bourdon2 and raise its volume by the required amount. This needs a knowledge of programming that's beyond me, but forum member Jake, who uses the name subbas32, specialises in this sort of work.

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=15741

customhworgans@gmail.com

If this idea looks useful you could email him with your requirements, and ask whether this is possible and what it would cost.
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby Antoni Scott » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:43 am

Thomas:
My balanced pedal is about 12" long, the fulcrum (middle) to the top being about 6 inches. The total travel distance of the top of the pedal from fully closed to fully open is about 8 inches. If I attach the pot closer to the middle, the travel distance will be less than eight inches so the volume control will be reduced. I can do it this way and achieve what I want, but it will take much trial and error. I was hoping it that there could be an easier way.
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby Grant_Youngman » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:26 am

I'm really surprised that CC scaling isn't a standard feature of some of the midi message translator software. I've been poking around and come across many forum posts in various places from people who want to do this to provide, for example, limits to adjustable ranges of filter parameter controls or restricted gain ranges of level controls, etc. during live performance. Mostly, they get "reserve salutes" as answers.

The only thing I spotted that may have this a a standard feature is Ableton. I know nothing about Ableton, but apparently it can translate a 0-127 CC to say 35-45, or whatever you want over the full range of the midi CC control. You just set up the scaled output range in a parameter screen for the CC control. it isn't clear to me whether this software is designed to act just as a midi pipe, though. But might be worth looking into.

It seems to me the mechanical idea would be really fiddly, and possibly difficult to adjust the range for some other purpose or sample set.

Maybe try to convince Martin/Brett to put this on the new feature list. Seems like it wouldn't be rocket science, but depending on what hooks the current midi processing threads have in them, it's probably more complicated than my simple mind imagines :-)
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby magnaton » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:54 am

Grant_Youngman wrote: I know nothing about Ableton, but apparently it can translate a 0-127 CC to say 35-45, or whatever you want over the full range of the midi CC control. You just set up the scaled output range in a parameter screen for the CC control. it isn't clear to me whether this software is designed to act just as a midi pipe, though. But might be worth looking into.


I'm using an Artisan microMidi board for my pedalboard and expression encoding and it also allows a min & max value to be defined for it's variable voltage (potentiometer) inputs. I have no issues with 0-127 for expression as HW detects full range received and divides accordingly however I had better luck limiting the range with the crescendo pedal.


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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby Antoni Scott » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:06 pm

To Grant Yougman:
It seems to me the mechanical idea would be really fiddly, and possibly difficult to adjust the range for some other purpose or sample set.

Yes, absolutely !!! The Hauptwerk range is 0 to 127. I set the minimum to 50 but it didn't make it quieter, just quicker.
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby NickNelson » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:02 am

The easiest way, probably, to limit the range of messages output by the pedal would be to insert extra resistance between the ground end of the potentiometer and ground. If the potentiometer is, say, 10k ohms and you put another 10k between the potentiometer and ground then the range of voltage (and thus the MIDI messages output) would be limited to 50-100. Of course you would have to autodetect the pedal with the extra resistance shorted out since otherwise HW will compensate for the reduced range.

For extra subtlety you could probably use a second potentiometer rather than a fixed resistor to 'pad' out the relative range of the sensing potentiometer.

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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby organtechnology » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:49 am

Antoni,

If you are trying to control the level of a single rank through the voicing system and controlling that slider through a pedal, I just don't think it will work no matter how much you limit your pedal. It seems like we are all talking about something different :roll:

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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby jkinkennon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:46 am

Nick Nelson has the right approach. I'd started to respond to this thread a number of times and then deleted my answers as I think that any attempt to put a volume control on an expression is a bad idea. I use ordinary potentiometers mounted on the coupler panel to control volume and balance, but making them a performance control is completely out of character for a pipe organ simulation. Just my opinion.

For adjusting the swell pedal response that is possible via the voicing adjustments I believe.
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby Grant_Youngman » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:07 pm

The biggest issue I see, is that whether you make a mechanical Rube Goldberg-ish contraption to manage CC scaling, or electrical (with pots or fixed resistors on the top and bottom of the of control), it becomes essentially permanent.

The original problem sounds like on some occasions — depending on the piece being played on a specific sample set — there is a desire to adjust the level of one stop within a limited range. I've had the same "wish I could do that" at times (such as lifting the Harmonic Flute just a bit on Metz) But mechanical or electrical solutions are all single purpose solutions that get in the way if you want to use the same pedal or (far better) console mounted control for some other purpose with a different sample set. Same issue exists if the midi interface does the scaling. Once scaled — always scaled.

I have a "volume" control on my console, tied to the "Audio Output Control" mini control panel. I set it differently depending on whether my wife is home or not. But I don't need the full range. The control would be easier to deal with if I could scale it to 50-100% or 65-100% or something (since ZERO is not useful)

If the scaling were done in HW, you could get this capability on a per control per sample set basis. With just a "few" lines of code on Martin's et al's part, of course :mrgreen:
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Re: Limiting Volume Control

Postby Grant_Youngman » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:09 pm

Grant_Youngman wrote:The biggest issue I see, is that whether you make a mechanical Rube Goldberg-ish contraption to manage CC scaling, or electrical (with pots or fixed resistors on the top and bottom of the of control), it becomes essentially permanent.

The original problem sounds like on some occasions — depending on the piece being played on a specific sample set — there is a desire to adjust the level of one stop within a limited range. I've had the same "wish I could do that" at times (such as lifting the Harmonic Flute just a bit on Metz) But mechanical or electrical solutions are all single purpose solutions that get in the way if you want to use the same pedal or (far better) console mounted control for some other purpose with a different sample set. Same issue exists if the midi interface does the scaling. Once scaled — always scaled.

I have a rotary "volume" control on my console, tied to the "Audio Output Control" mini control panel. I set it differently depending on whether my wife is home or not. But I don't need the full range. The control would be easier to deal with if I could scale it to 50-100% or 65-100% or something (since ZERO is not useful)

If the scaling were done in HW, you could get this capability on a per control per sample set basis. With just a "few" lines of code on Martin's et al's part, of course :mrgreen:
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