It is currently Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:28 pm


Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

A discussion forum for anything even marginally Hauptwerk-related.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

lars.dietrich

Member

  • Posts: 11
  • Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 7:12 am

josq wrote:
Purator wrote:
162_Ranks wrote:The situation was different for the v4 -> v5 upgrade. That transition meant the end of support for v4 licenses. I understand people feel uneasy about that, but to me that was justified because 1) there were significant new features/improvements 2) HW 4 was already 8.5 years old and 3) the v4 licensing system was broken and appeared to be abused at a quite large scale.


100% agree. Some users complain about this step, but as a honest customer it is also in my interest that illegal copies and usage is prevented. And the improvements in version V were just great.

For me MDA and Hauptwerk is no only a software (company) but also a community ... of people with similar special interests. Of course I also want that MDA is a successful business, and they will continue with Hauptwerk for many, many years. But at the moment I do not feel treated as an affiliate customer but as a cash cow.

@MDA: I know, you read through all these comments. Please: Give us a picture of how it will continue in future. Will you release a paid update once a year? Or may it happen that you want us to pay for it already in 5 months from now? After 8 years of development on HW V it was just somehow irritating, that you release the next version after less than a year. There is almost no communication from your side ... even not an official announcement in the forum.

I really appreciate the updates done in this version and I want to say a big thanks to Martin for his support, work and also his regular comments and help here in the forum. And I really would like to feel happy about the continuity in development, but this sudden and unexpected release leaves a certain aftertaste.
Offline

zonker

Member

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:55 am
  • Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 7:54 am

tocata wrote:While this might be a marginal concern this time around, what when a forced HW 7 upgrade left behind Windows 7 systems for good?


this is an interesting and difficult issue. Microsoft mostly stopped supporting W7 in Jan 2020, and in Jan 2023 it will go the same way as XP or W95, i.e. it will be abandonware and the toolchains that software developers use to compile code will no longer support the platform because the support costs and compromises necessary to maintain backwards compatibility are too high. So even though visual C 2019 still supports W7 builds, sooner or later they will produce a version of the compiler which will no longer support the o/s. This is a particular problem for platforms which use third party libraries because you often end up being tied to the minimum commonly supported version across all the various libraries.

Incidentally, you'll see a different manifestation of the same problem with hardware audio drivers, and probably sooner. Audio hardware drivers are kernel modules, and are signed using digital certificates which will expire one day. On that day, your audio system will stop working unless the clock on your computer is manually tweaked to stay before the date of expiry, or unless you disable integrity checking on boot (not possible on W10, btw). IIRC Microsoft will no longer sign kernel drivers for windows 7, i.e. there's a clock ticking here and the audio hardware manufacturers will be unable to provide updates to fix this problem.

There's a bit of a cultural mismatch going on here. Organists are used to the concept of having a system which will work for hundreds of years if maintained properly. Computer software / hardware platforms are end-of-life and usually obsolete within 10 years. There aren't any viable options to bridge this gap in expectations, other than to understand that there is a cost associated with supporting any computer system and that this cost needs to be borne by someone.

Nick
Offline
User avatar

gecko

Member

  • Posts: 250
  • Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:35 am
  • Location: New York

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 7:57 am

Just want to applaud what Lars said.

I'm glad for the update and look forward to buying it. I like supporting MDA since it's a small software company that produces a spectacularly good product. I would like to feel good about this support

BUT

MDA makes it hard for us.

My mother used to say that surprises are usually bad, and this upgrade was a surprise. MDA's customers are totally unable to plan because MDA refuses to communicate with us. I don't understand why they're content to generate this kind of bad will. It seems so unnecessary.

Just give us a road map, folks. It can be tentative. It can be changed as necessary. But please, please stop surprising us like this.
I still have a very small website
http://dustyfeet.com
Offline

Romanos

Member

  • Posts: 464
  • Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:11 pm
  • Location: Oklahoma

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 8:47 am

Every major piece of software that I use has paid annual updates. You can continue to use the old versions, or update, your choice. I utterly fail to see why this is an issue for HW too. Anyone who has a perpetual license can continue to happily chug along. For me, this is a little bit like putting gas into a car; I'll pay for continued development and support of HW just like I'll continue to put gas in my car. In either case, if I stop, I'll have an 11k paperweight that takes up a lot of room in my study/garage.

I confess I am saddened by the seeming sudden arrival of the new version: there is no forum post, I don't recall receiving an email about it (I happened to check the forum this morning for the first time in months and see this thread–to my surprise), I haven't spotted any warning or heads up from the developers that the next update would be paid, and there is very little information about version VI on the actual website. A bunch of the image links on the site are broken, and the actual press release under the news section tells you to visit....the press release for more details. Somebody isn't thinking straight.

Honestly, it breaks my heart to see what was once a happy, thriving forum turn into a very negative place. I note how relatively few posts there have been since my last visit a few months ago. The culture, it appears to me, is dying because people are so miffed about how the updating has occurred. I thought Michele was being brought on as PR, but I don't perceive a ton of posts from her either. Perhaps I'm wrong; I haven't scoured the whole forum yet. But if she is still doing PR, then why on earth isn't there a forum post in the news section?

These things worry me, as a user, because it seems like the company isn't healthy. All I know is that I couldn't stand my baked in Johannus sounds (to the point that I had a tech rip out the tone generation cards all together), I've had p*ss-poor luck with G.O., and I don't know where to turn from here if HW goes under... so, support HW it is. This software is SO important to my daily life. I just really wish they would start behaving in a more becoming way that generated community excitement, rather than angst.
Offline

einer_von_weitem

Member

  • Posts: 96
  • Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 4:45 am
  • Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 9:15 am

Romanos wrote:These things worry me, as a user, because it seems like the company isn't healthy. ... This software is SO important to my daily life. I just really wish they would start behaving in a more becoming way that generated community excitement, rather than angst.


Amen to that!
My Hauptwerk recordings on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJu6YY ... XMA/videos
Offline

Mcguckind

Member

  • Posts: 8
  • Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:53 pm

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 9:42 am

MDA is a small software company especially compared to the biggies Adobe, Yamaha, Microsoft.

I pay what I consider a lot for Adobe CC. They stopped new perpetual licences years ago. Lots in the industry use it, so collaboration with others makes it pretty much a necessity. Every year its "so much faster" than the previous year. Yet its still buggy and needs lots of attention. I use it, but it certainly give me no pleasure. With the millions that use it, they could make it a lot cheaper.

I think I paid for 2 upgrades to cubase this year, not counting my Sibelius subscription, my Microsoft 365 and countless others. Yes I wish I paid a lot less. But Cubase, Sibelius and Dorico etc make my work a bit easier.

I Still have a Mac Classic from 1989, running MOTU Mosaic. I loved the programme. Much much easier to use than any others at that time and it cost a lot. But MOTU stopped developing it. I do use it sometimes, 30 years later it can still do the odd thing simply and fast on its 2mb memory 8mhz processor and 40mb hard drive. But there lots it can't

The Computer world changes at lighting speed recently. Martin and MDA did not move very fast from version 4 to 5. But neither did the computer specs at that time. I think they are prepping us for the next step. We can now use a higher sample rate than 48. Higher quality pitch shifting etc. I think the future is very bright for all us organ lovers.

When Virgil fox was touring with that vast Rogers Analogue Organ. He wanted to bring organ music to the masses. And he did succeed with very limited technology. Instead of a few hundred going to a concert in Haarlem, Virgil could have taken Haarlem to all those concerts and many other amazing organs that Hauptwerk allows us to hear.

Im sure Martin and MDA have made the odd mistake here and there, but with many negative posts, they are not deleted or checked beforehand like many companies and you will find him constantly answering question after question daily. This is not someone who has run away with our money. He has invested his life into Hauptwerk and with his talents no doubt he could have made millions elsewhere.

So many of us are financially constrained with the pandemic (N Ireland and my church is about to be closed down fo another few weeks again), but please be a little kinder to MDA. If I was getting this much criticism at work I would prob look for another job.

Martin yourself and MDA continue to develop something that gives so many so much pleasure. The complexity of the software code must be mind blowing, but to us its just a great organ in our church, our homes or wherever.

Please do not comment or scrutinise my thoughts. They are simply my thoughts

now ill go back trying to see if I can get the Gigue Fugue to even 60% of Virgils Speed.

Be kind and keep safe

David
Offline

tocata

Member

  • Posts: 69
  • Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 10:19 am

zonker wrote:
IainStinson wrote:How much pleasure / benefit do you get from Hauptwerk? If it is costing around $100 a year that’s less than $2 a week.
[...]
Having a 7-year gap between major software releases is the sort of thing that can mess cashflow around to the point that it can turn a viable business into a non-viable business.

Nick



But whatever the reason it took them seven years until HW5, nobody expected for HW4 to last that long, and users were anxious if there ever was going to be a HW5. So, they could have helped their cash-flow earlier unless there was nothing to show for yet.

It could also be that the new functions and upgrades in HW6 were planned for HW5, but weren't ready yet and MDA needed for HW5 to be out of the gate asap.
Offline

Thomas344

Member

  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 5:27 am

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 11:25 am

I find Milan's reaction unbearable: namely no reaction. Impossible. That makes me think. Totally unprofessional. To all users who want to support this ugly business model: Anyone is welcome to support Milan on a donation basis. But unfortunately most of us don't understand this. I'm still waiting for an appropriate explanation from Milan. That is the least I can do. We deserve this much decency.
Offline

dcaton

Member

  • Posts: 63
  • Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:12 pm
  • Location: Lighthouse Point, Florida

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 11:40 am

Seems to me there are two issues here.

First, the cost of a major version upgrade after only 11 months since the last paid upgrade. Being a long time software developer, and once having my own small company that sold a product I wrote, I am very familiar with the feeling that software should be free. Open source software doesn't help change people's perception of the value (or lack thereof) in something intangible like software. But programmers have to eat and pay their bills too. HW is not a hobby for those involved, it's a business.

As a general rule, bug fixes should also be free and be available in perpetuity, at no additional cost. But, what constitutes a "bug" is sometimes crystal clear, and at other times, subjective. "Bad" design is often a matter of opinion, unless it significantly hampers the normal operation of the product.

A purchase is acceptance of the product as it exists at that point, barring of course, defects or "bugs". If you don't like a design decision, accept it, don't buy the product, or return it within the offered return period.

The real problem here, in my opinion, is in communications from MDA. Actually, the lack thereof. You'd think they would have learned from the mistakes of 5.0 but apparently not. And by "they" I most certainly do not include Martin. Sometimes I think he never sleeps, and his support is first class, But he does not (and probably can not) speak to business or marketing issues.

You don't just decide to release a major new upgrade overnight. Yet still, there's no email from MDA, no official announcement, no post in the Announcement section, nothing. MDA is small company and you'd expect to hear something once in a while from the owner. I sincerely hope Brett is ok. If he is, he ought to be reading some books on marketing and communications.

A lot of the anger towards MDA could have been prevented with simple basic communications.

Personally, I'll pay the $99 to upgrade. I've gotten absolutely zero out of the V4 to V5 upgrade because I moved and my organ has been in pieces for the last 16 months. But I'll upgrade again. Partly because I like some of the new features, and partly because I want to help insure HW continues to be actively developed.
Offline

japrenticeuk

Member

  • Posts: 23
  • Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 1:41 pm

I am concerned about the big picture. Previous posts talk about the challenge of the market size for Hauptwerk.

Certainly there are few people like the members of this forum with the ability to customize consoles, midify pedals, configure Hauptwerk and choose audio equipment. The market for organists who want access to a range of world class organs to play at home is much bigger. However these organists will be buying an instrument from a specialist supplier and will not have the "obsolete and disposable" attitude that purchasers of computers and their software have to live with.

An organ supplier is going to have to offer the expectation of a significant life and be able to economically support their product over that life. With the rate of evolution of consumer grade PC hardware this is hard for all products with embedded computers and particularly so where interfaces are needed to custom hardware and real-time performance is needed. There are high risks in replacing a Hauptwerk computer with a new one even in a two year old system.

These risks are greatly magnified if the support life for HW from MDA is short and support can suddenly be terminated (like now for HW 5).

HW 5.0 uncovered what is surely a bug in Windows 10 memory management. Martin was very industrious in investigating this and producing a work-around by using and earlier memory allocation call to Windows. It is entirely possible that Microsoft could introduce such errors in Windows updates and, for practical purposes, it is impossible to get and use an old version of Windows and kernel mode drivers.

The effect of this is that Hauptwerk's market is artificially limited to people who are prepared to discard or regularly "rebuild" their organs in line with computer hardware and operating system mortality. MDA should work to try to mitigate this problem for the entire community's benefit.
Offline

cxl119

Member

  • Posts: 16
  • Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:47 pm

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 9:01 pm

Agree.

dcaton wrote:A lot of the anger towards MDA could have been prevented with simple basic communications.
Chris Luckenbill
DuBois, PA
Offline
User avatar

gary.chapman

Member

  • Posts: 21
  • Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:37 am
  • Location: Brooklyn, NY USA

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSat Nov 21, 2020 9:08 pm

Agree 100%.

cxl119 wrote:Agree.

dcaton wrote:A lot of the anger towards MDA could have been prevented with simple basic communications.
Offline

tocata

Member

  • Posts: 69
  • Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 6:51 am

japrenticeuk wrote:
HW 5.0 uncovered what is surely a bug in Windows 10 memory management. Martin was very industrious in investigating this and producing a work-around by using and earlier memory allocation call to Windows. It is entirely possible that Microsoft could introduce such errors in Windows updates and, for practical purposes, it is impossible to get and use an old version of Windows and kernel mode drivers.

The effect of this is that Hauptwerk's market is artificially limited to people who are prepared to discard or regularly "rebuild" their organs in line with computer hardware and operating system mortality. MDA should work to try to mitigate this problem for the entire community's benefit.


I would think critical installations of HW will be left “as is” with no Windows update necessary and possible (system is kept offline) and HW will not be updated beyond the latest stable version.

This renders the subscription model useless since it seems that users are forced to upgrade to the next HW version once their license expires and support for the older version ceases. Obviously, a perpetual license is the only way forward for critical installations.
Offline

japrenticeuk

Member

  • Posts: 23
  • Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 8:25 am

tocata wrote:
I would think critical installations of HW will be left “as is” with no Windows update necessary and possible (system is kept offline) and HW will not be updated beyond the latest stable version.

This renders the subscription model useless since it seems that users are forced to upgrade to the next HW version once their license expires and support for the older version ceases. Obviously, a perpetual license is the only way forward for critical installations.


Customer expectation means that most purchased systems have this "critical installation" status.

The important factor here is that computers and sound cards don't last for ever (or even long enough) and the chance of a system image taken, say, three years ago working with today's hardware is not large. This is the risk to any vendor relying on the "pickle in aspic" model and why everyone in the business has to act to mitigate the problem.
Offline
User avatar

Vladimir Ratkovsky

Member

  • Posts: 98
  • Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:40 am
  • Location: Piaseczno, Poland

Re: Hauptwerk VI - paid update after 11 months?

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 8:52 am

"A lot of the anger towards MDA could have been prevented with simple basic communications."

Totally agree, and obviously I will pay for the upgrade to support MDA business, as HW brings so much joy into my daily life (especially during winter months).
Vladimir
PreviousNext

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests