"Interesting" church - HW vs Rodgers situation

I have been in contact with a church music committee that's quite evenly split on going with HW or a new Rodgers. Obviously there is a larger than life concern about $$$. Their old Rodgers which has served them for 20+ years has become a non reliable resource. Cutting to the chase, the conversation now is hovering about long term reliability and importantly, if they went with a HW conversion, who do they call to fix it if etc, etc. A familiar "concern". Having said that, I find out they had 2 factory authorized service people look at their instrument. Both gave the same report that they (Rodgers) can no longer supply the parts (assume chips) to do a repair as no one stocks or has these parts any longer. Whether this is a ploy to get them to consider buying a new Rodgers (could be?), I don't know as I'm hearing this 2nd hand.

The service guys seemed fixed apparently that there was some kind of power surge or such that did the damage. The church didn't have protection at the site of the organ but rather relied on a device at the electrical service entrance to take care of the entire building. Maybe something like the system that shut the lights off at the dome during the Super Bowl last night?

So the unanswerable question remains, if, 20 years in the future, their HW instrument needs repairs, who do they call and secondly will parts still be available. Really, nothing new. I feel the first person to answer those ??'s correctly deserves a prize. What say you?

Rgds,
Ed

Have any of us seen a computerized device that is used regularly,
last the average expected life of an electromechanical Pipe Organ.

I would say that the cost to replace a computer, and Midi interface system,
would be Far less than the cost to Rebuild any Pipe Organ !

Also from my personal experience, many keyboards that utilize bubble contacts
that have been used with Hauptwerk,
do not have a very long "commercial use lifetime".

Some keyboards that utilize optical, or magnetic switching "might" expect to have a longer lifetime
but, could they last up to 30 years with minimal repair ?

Most of today's speakers that utilize foam surrounds have shown short lifetimes,
although they can be professionally reconditioned.

Hopefully we can develop Hauptwerk systems that are specifically engineered,
to last much longer.

Finding a repair person in the future with the skills to repair a Hauptwerk organ
might be difficult.
Could some of us with the skills to do repairs,
produce a list to of those around the country that are able
to repair them !

I am sure most of today's electronic organ repair technicians,
supplied with substantial documentation,
could easily recondition a well built Hauptwerk Organ !

To counter the above the cost to replace a Hauptwerk organ is much
Less than than a Pipe Organ Rebuild !

The answer is that if they put the money they will save by purchasing a Hauptwerk organ in an interest bearing investment, they'll be enough money in that account 20 years hence to purchase a new organ utilizing the latest and greatest technology.

Keep your Rodgers for 20 years - who do you call for repair work -- Rodgers of course But they can't fix it. Not a good case for buying a non-Hauptwerk standard organ?
Keith

This isn't so much a competition between Rodgers Instruments and Hauptwerk--as it is between the local dealer's abilities as a systems integrator and whatever ad hoc group is proposing Hauptwerk. WE know that Hauptwerk sound is unbelievable--we know that the amazing part about Hauptwerk is the ability to produce that amazing sound using commodity computer and audio components. But much as we cherish the ability to tweak the temperament and mean tuning of a sound set, the church board doesn't know about that--or care.

The real advantage that the dealer brings to the table is their ability to "own" the entire job. They can provide the console, they can provide the speakers, they can handle the high-voltage and low-voltage electrical work between them, and they will provide support for everything.

What's not known here is what strengths there are to the Hauptwerk solution, beyond the obvious advantages of sound quality. Are we talking about using existing MIDI circuitry in the existing console? Are we talking about MIDI-fying the console? Are we talking about replacing the console with a refurb'd console (e.g. from Organ Technology)? Or a DIY console (Classic MIDI Works)? Or a brand, spankin' new console (e.g. Westminster Organ Works)?

But installing a Hauptwerk instrument in a church isn't just a question of the console. It's how many channels of audio to use; what interface, and whether multiple interfaces need to be chained together; and what speakers, with what configuration. But it's also a question of systems integration--where are you going to put that audio hardware; how are you going to route the audio cabling from the console to the speakers; and lots more. Do you need to add electrical capacity for all of those speakers? (Probably.) Should all those circuits be on the same phase? (Yes.)

If the Hauptwerk proposal includes a systems integrator who can handle all of those details--and has done it for other churches--then you have a competitive proposal. If the Hauptwerk team hasn't--then the dealer (who will present the board with a long list of churches they work with) will win.

That dealer is a Rodgers Instruments reseller--but his day-to-day business with new installations is really a matter of systems integration. And that's really the big uncertainty about a Hauptwerk solution. Will solid state MIDI components work indefinitely? Yes. But when the people who sit on the left side of the balcony start complaining about a buzzing sound overhead, who goes up on the scaffolding to figure out which speaker, and whether it's the speaker, the audio cables, a ground loop, or something else?

Present a credible plan for the console, and a credible solution to the systems integration question, and you have a winning solution--because in the end, we have better sound, and more options for different sound if the music director so chooses. But if there isn't a credible solution for the systems integration question, all the sound sets in the world won't fix it.

(Kinda makes me wonder why organ dealers don't offer Hauptwerk solutions themselves. Their expertise is in the systems integration--why not develop some expertise in the new world of pro audio [or partner with a pro audio dealer] and expand your offering?)

Ed:
I would highly recommend that your church retain the original Rodgers console and retrofit it for Hauptwerk. I did exactly this to a beautiful three manual 66 stop Rodgers 990 and it worked out very well. Cost was my main driving force. Obviously, using Hauptwerk was a "must", everything else was secondary and the end result was a magnificent looking and sounding organ, far better than the original organ.

The retrofit was time consuming but not difficult. I was able to use the original keyboards/pedalboards and stops within the beautiful console. Removing the tons of junk inside the console made it about half the weight. I had special stop overlays ( thin strips that are the same shape as the tilt stop) made up in a variety of specificationsand had several specifications available. Everythng was powered by a Mac.

Since, in a new organ, the main cost would be the console furniture itself, this cost is saved for other things ( conputer, more sample sets, etc) if you use the original console.

Antoni

Ed:
I forgot to add that as technology moves forward, digital solutions will follow, whether it be Hauptwerk or something else. Just remember that the most expensive parts you already have, the console and the audio system. Analog to digital conversion boards ( to convert the old Rodgers key contact depression into a digital signal) are about $100 each ( $600 for a three manual and pedal organ with about 70 stops) . This digital signal will feed into some kind of sound source, preferably Hauptwerk. I'm sure 20 years from now repairs will never be a problem.


That's really it. Again, keep the old Rodgers.

Antoni

If you wonder who you can call for help, the answer is broader than the Rodgers solution. If your Rodgers is broken, you call Rodgers. But if your Hauptwerk is broken you call someone with:

- enough knowledge of computers
or
- enough knowledge of audio systems
or
- enough knowledge of circuitry

There is likely someone in your community with the right skills to fix the problems you may encounter.

So the unanswerable question remains,
if, 20 years in the future, their HW instrument needs repairs, who do they call?

and secondly will parts still be available.

Really, nothing new. I feel the first person to answer those ??'s correctly deserves a prize. What say you?

Rgds,
Ed

Since the nature of the Hauptwerk system is more closely related to the other A/V equipment used by a church than to a closed architecture organ system, the repair resources are not the organ companies but the computer service companies. A system with a 5 year in-house warranty can be purchased which will include the services of a technician to come to the organ and repair the computer.

If the repair parts are not readily available the entire computer box can be replaced. In addition, as computers evolve, the replacement cost continues to go down. Alternately the computer can be removed from the organ and taken to a computer repair facility where it will either be repaired, updated or replaced.

Regular Preventative Maintenance needs to be performed at appropriate intervals to keep the airflow paths clean and unobstructed and insects and rodents dealt with appropriately.

Some of the consoles and keyboards that Organtechnology converted were already 30 years old when they were converted and there is no reason to think they won't last another 30-40 years. So my opinion is to have the Rodgers console converted to a MIDI controller and add a Hauptwerk sound engine computer, provide a really good audio system (this may be the Rodgers original one augmented) and hire an experienced voicer to come set it all up. We can help if they want.

Pax,

Thomas

Interesting thoughts, thanks. For the record, the church involved (above) is not "my" church, but that of a distant friend. We put a H / W organ in our church sometime ago which has been greatly appreciated, call it that H / W sound which is 8 channel surround. We modeled our installation after Bob Collins at Zion sometime ago, but without the real pipes. The 3M/P console in almost an exact copy/twin to his. You can do a search using Zion to see his really neat installation even tho we haven't heard much from him lately.

Rgds,
Ed

@ John Murdoch,

I read with much interest your previous post to this topic and see that you recommend that the Hauptwerk system, audio, etc. all be on the same electrical phase. Would you mind expanding on why this is?? What would you do in a single phase 240v, 3 wire vs. a three phase 240v 4 wire supply? I am especially interested in case of different phases being available in different speaker chambers.
'
Bob

Hi Bob!

Why put all the audio gear on a single phase?

I wish I could quote Zinzendorf's Law of Ground Loops or something equally impressive--but really it's just something I've read several times in articles on installing (or debugging) audio systems. A typical church electrical installation in the U.S. will have two opposed phases (A and B); some, but not all, audio gear includes a switch to swap the electrical phasing to eliminate buzzing. By putting all the gear on the same phase to start with, that issue goes away.

In a perfect world this should not be an issue--in practice, it seems to be.

(I'd love it if Paul Hodges or Brett Milan, or somebody else with knowledge of this, would chime in. I can debug the problem--but only by unplugging components and throwing out the likely cause of the problem. I don't know WHY the buzz occurs.)

I've read some theories about this also, however, never found any of these issues when using balanced inputs with isolation transformers. Likewise, it is a bad habit to connect the common speaker connection(s) to chassis ground in place of connecting to the designated common term. I ran into a real trouble shooting mess where (some all knowing) person wanted to connect 2 separate speaker systems a distance away from the power amp but only had 2 wires. He figured he could use electrical conduit ground as the common. After burning out the output stages of the amp probably due to oscillation or something worse, he decided that wouldn't work. We had to run the correct cables (after repairing the amp).

Rgds,
Ed

While I will admit that US systems confuse me ( I, and most european professionals, consider them death-traps) I have quite a lot of experience of EU 230V single phase/440V 3-phase systems. ( I routinely design concert distro systems up to 1MW.)

As Ed says, anything balanced (and if necessary, transformered) should just work.
A fully balanced system should work without the transformer, if the earth in the mic cable is disconnected at one end of the loop (preferably the end furthest from the distributuion box!).
In large/old buildings, things may not be as simple as a single building ground/earth.
When specifying mains for audio, it is good practice to specify an earth conductor that is greater than the sum of the csa. of the other cunductors. (A bit like knowing that a neutral that can handle the harmonics on a phase-controled/switched transformer-less power amp system is desired, but rarely understood, let alone done!)
FWIW, even un-balanced systems can normally be fixed with transformers, the cheap ones will work. Look up "ground loop isolator" in your favourite electronics supplier. Use one on each end of the audio line, connected to the centre conductors of a screened, balanced twisted-pair microphone cable. Connect the screen at the end closest to the building earth.
Always works.

Ed, Have you posted anything detailed on your church's installation? It would be interesting to see what you have done and what you learned in the process.

mike