what are state-of-the-art dynamics of theater organ sampes

Hi Forum

Is anyone willing to share what about the hardware that makes for better theater organ samples? Is the hardware (mics for example) so dynamic that a good sample set today is kinda mediocre tomorrow?? Do mics matter that much .,...or does the recorder? Interesting to me. .....I am right now just talking about the hardware. I know the actual recording sessions (methods) are involved in 'good samples' but would think this can be kinda proprietary. Maybe all this is??

I just wonder what makes a sample set 'obsolete' ..if that is really possible. I guess a 'good set' stands on its own merits (even if the hardware is obsolete by today's standards). IOW: If it sounds good, it is profitable to market and may be a pace setter. I just don't know.

Frankly I am new to VTPO but an experienced TPO'er. I know pipes from electronic organs. But I kinda have a hard time knowing what makes for a good sample set. Obviously some sound dry. Some too wet. Some are downright RAZZY....thin or tinny. Some have chorus or reverb added in. Some kinda sound hodge podggy....like a collection of pipes that, by themselves, are perfect (but NOT REAL in combo with the other 'perfect' pipes. ). I must admit: I think I am a big fan of recording INSTALLED organs...NOT trying to present a sample set of PERFECT pipes not ever present in a practical installed site. To me this is artificial....phony but perfectly (too perfectly) PERFECT. Just my opinion obviously. Also realize I haven't a clue as to what really makes a good sample set. I am just 'tossing out' ideas.

Well...wonder if this is an OK post?? Surely is interesting to me.

Best
Dave

Hello Dave,

You are asking very good questions. While I am not at liberty just yet to provide details, we are currently hard at work on an ambitious new project that has been under development for nearly three years. We believe it will set a high standard for next generation virtual theater pipe organs. It embodies many of the philosophies you mentioned. For example, ultra high resolution samples were recorded with state-of-the-art microphones and have been very carefully processed with the best available software so as to faithfully preserve the sound of the fabulous original organ. When we are closer to final release we will provide more information and publish a few demonstration recordings made by world class organists.

Joe Hardy
Paramount Organ Works

Joe,
This is awesome news. I can hardly wait.

Ted Williamson

Hi Ted, A "Big Amen" to Al, and Paramount,
I have been Impatiently waiting for this Sample set Forever !

Every sample set i have ever had for theatre organ... I have always adjusted the tuning so it sounds more realistic.... I have never heard a theatre organ that is perfectly in tune on all ranks. The percussions especially.

Every sample set i have ever had for theatre organ... I have always adjusted the tuning so it sounds more realistic.... I have never heard a theatre organ that is perfectly in tune on all ranks. The percussions especially.

I quite agree with you that real theatre pipe organs are never perfectly in tune. That being said, the expectation of the great majority of our customers is that our sample sets are delivered with pipework tuned to A 440. The nice thing is that with Hauptwerk AE one can adjust tuning to suit one's taste.

Joe Hardy
Paramount Organ Works

I have never heard a theatre organ that is perfectly in tune on all ranks. The percussions especially.

Well I have!
I've held notes for the tuning of several theatre organs. When the tuning was complete, had an chance to play some off trem selections much to my delight. I think staying in tune is the issue for theatre organs. With heavy tremulants and closed in chambers with heavy swell shades that might remain closed could contribute to this.

I attended the Indianapolis ATOS National Convention 2 years ago. The organ crew was fine tuning the Page organ at the Paramount Theatre in Anderson, IN just seconds before the doors opened for attendees. After the 1st half of the concert, I made a comment that the organ was so in tune it sounded electronic at times. Others who heard me say that laughed and agreed.

Its typical conditioning where I and several others I know play electronic instruments quite often (brands R, J, and A) and can notice the fullness and slight tuning variations of real pipe organ where as folks on the flip side immediately notice the sterile sound of these electronic instruments, especially older brand "A" models where the tuning is locked-in to a processor clock. Then there is Haupwerk which opens up a new world of realism. Thank goodness.

Danny B.

Is anyone willing to share what about the hardware that makes for better theater organ samples? Is the hardware (mics for example) so dynamic that a good sample set today is kinda mediocre tomorrow?

Dave, you are coming from the perspective of the highest possible relative fidelity. Indeed, the absolute - the real thing. So, you are setting the bar at its highest.

In my experience if I cause the samples here to be processed by higher and higher resolution replay hardware, some samples just get better and better. Others do not. Indeed, they can become unlistenable, and unusable.

Without exception those samples which come alive with the better quality replay equipment are those with either no, or minimal post processing. Whether they be dry, moist or wet samples. When higher and higher resolution replay devices are used the more post processing of a sample which has been used, the more artificial and 'electronic' that these heavily processed samples seem due to the unnatural artifacts created by such post processing.

To minimise these issues, one creator of very high quality TPO samples uses a sampling rate of 192kHz and 32 bit word length to sample the pipes, and then, if post processing of those samples is required, they undertake that processing at 32/192 before downsampling to 24/96. And they use a very high quality capture chain.

None of this capture/replay perfectionism has any relationship to whether the target instrument, or pipes is, in and of itself 'perfect'. What the capture/replay chain should be is transparent to the source. Whether that source be an idealised example of TPO regulation and voicing, or a shambolic example. Or somewhere in between. Ideally, the capture/replay chain should not add any unnatural contributions of its own.

With regard to the overall dynamics of an instrument, this comes back once more to the quality of the replay gear being used. For example when I changed from 32 channels of Echo DACs to 32 channels of RME, using identical audio, there was not only a major jump in the integrity and realism of any replayed sample, but also a startling jump in the dynamics of the entire instrument. I have experienced a lesser, but similar jump in both quality and dynamics when I moved from RME to Lynx gear. You get what you pay for.

Do mics matter that much .,...or does the recorder? Interesting to me. .....I am right now just talking about the hardware. I know the actual recording sessions (methods) are involved in 'good samples' but would think this can be kinda proprietary.

Microphones, microphone preamps, and the ADC involved play a critical role in capturing the original pipe. If the virtual organ source (the sample) is not of sufficient quality and/or riddled with digital and electronic artifacts, then increasing the quality of the replay audio chain is pointless with such samples. They simply become hard and 'glary' and unusable.

For instance, I've heard too many samples captured by the ubiquitous Zoom H-4 (and their product brothers and sisters). If the internal preamp doesn't have to work hard (or almost at all), then a sample of something very loud like an Ophicleide on 15" wind can end up being marginally useful. Provided that it doesn't require any processing. But that, as I found when I went down this path myself some years ago, is the end of the line. The Zoom mics are not up to the task, and most especially, the preamp is not of a sufficient design to cope. After a few months of disappointing ownership, I gave my Zoom away. You get what you pay for. Sadly.

I just wonder what makes a sample set 'obsolete' ..if that is really possible.......

For me, what has made samples and/or sample sets obsolete has been increasing the quality of the replay equipment being used.

Cheers,

Ian