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St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

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Tweedle_Dee

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St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostMon Aug 29, 2016 4:09 pm

I believe they have started using a Hauptwerk setup while installing their new main organ. They are using the Salisbury sample set. Anyone have further details?
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RickC

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostThu Sep 08, 2016 11:31 am

I certainly hope this is true, but I've seen no mention of interim plans on their web site. I've followed the progress of their new instrument, and listen regularly to their services via the web. And if they are really using Hauptwerk, it might lead to the possibility of sampling the new Dobson instrument. (Well, I can dream, can't I?)
Perhaps 2 years ago, they said their intent was to use the gallery organ more, and to supplement it with their Allen (I think from the Choir room?) temporarily moved to the chancel. But plans change, particularly with the loss of John Scott.
I, too, would like to hear from anyone with real info.
Rick
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bkhoskins

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostThu Sep 08, 2016 12:36 pm

Indeed St. Thomas Church is using a Hauptwerk setup temporarily while the new instrument is being built, and yes they are using the Salisbury sample set. Of course the Taylor and Boody in the Gallery, which was also just recently enlarged, will continue to be used as well. When the previous organ was removed this summer, an Allen organ was installed temporarily until the Hauptwerk system was built/installed. 3-manual console built by Ortloff Organ Company, LLC. (http://ortlofforgan.com/st-thomas) Once the new Dobson is installed and ready, the plan is to move the Hauptwerk instrument to the choir school, which will then be used as a practice instrument.

And unfortunately, there are no current plans to sample the new Dobson, sorry.
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Benjamin K. Hoskins
Dobson Pipe Organ Builders, Ltd.

"Without music, life would be an error."
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organtechnology

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostThu Sep 08, 2016 1:06 pm

Hi,
What is in the audio system? How many speakers, channels, etc.
Thomas the curious
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bkhoskins

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostThu Sep 08, 2016 2:59 pm

organtechnology wrote:Hi,
What is in the audio system? How many speakers, channels, etc.
Thomas the curious


Those are questions I don't know the answers to, though I would be curious to find out myself. We (Dobson) really don't have any involvement with the temporary Haupterk installation at St. Thomas.
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Benjamin K. Hoskins
Dobson Pipe Organ Builders, Ltd.

"Without music, life would be an error."
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johnstump_organist

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostThu Sep 08, 2016 6:24 pm

I wonder if the little Aeolian Skinner unit organ is still in the choir room. I had my improvisation lessons with Gerre Hancock on that instrument, occasionally going up to the main church for some "fun".
John
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lupham

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostFri Oct 21, 2016 2:34 pm

Hello, I had a chance to play it yesterday for short time. It's running on a Mac Pro I think 32gb ram. I'm guessing because of just two large speaker towers it's just two channels, they are left and right above the choir out where the unenclosed divisions where. It sounded very good except the pedal which building slowly though the flues not much happened until the reeds. The Other devisions sounded good and the solo plays on upper manual but didn't have time to see if any where else. The Tuba enjoyable. Also I hear at first it was to loud and they had to turn it down. Lynn
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Antoni Scott

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostSun Oct 23, 2016 9:59 am

I think the Aeolian-Skinner at St. Thomas Episcopal is a treasure. Personally I feel it is a travesty to replace it or do what ever they are planning to do with it. This is the same story I hear over and over again. Some new organ company always seems to know what is better than the original organ builder.

I saw a short YouTube video where some prominent author/ historian/ politician who is obviously a member of that church, stated that the present organ had outlived its usefulness. Outlived its usefulness !!!! This language is troubling, but all too common. I played this organ about ten years ago and thought it was superb in every way. I have heard many recitals and attended a Gere Hancock roast where many guests played one after the other. If today ,it needs rebuilding, then rebuild it. Perhaps I have misread the entire situation and would love for someone to Correct me.

If this organ is to be replaced, the common argument that Hauptwerk sampling sound engineers are saving historic organs through their efforts is more valid now that at any time. It should have been sampled before anything .
Sorry about my emotional response, but that's the way I feel.
Antoni
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bkhoskins

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostSun Oct 23, 2016 12:30 pm

It's reassuring to know there are people out there, like Antoni, who have such high regard for significant and historic instruments. I share the sentiment whole-heartedly, and I can tell you that my colleagues at Dobson do, as well. Although the primary goal of our company is the building of new organs (some very fine and successful instruments, I must say), we also take on a good deal of restoration work, which no doubt includes some very unique and historically-significant organs.

http://dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/resto_rebuild/mankato.html
http://dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/resto_rebuild/remsen/remsen.html
http://dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/resto_rebuild/clermont.html
http://dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/resto_rebuild/sthelena/sthelena.html
http://dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/resto_rebuild/spillville.html (Played by Antonin Dvorak himself during his stay in Iowa during the summer of 1893.)

And the use of the term "restoration" isn't used lightly. Many organ "builders" and service companies that undertake restoration work end up changing instruments entirely, making them almost unrecognizable tonally, mechanically, and even visually than the original builder had envisioned. That is not how our company operates. We, on the other hand, strive to be as faithful to the original instrument as we possibly can, reusing original materials/components, using period-appropriate materials/methods, not making unjust and unnecessary tonal alterations, and we certainly don't advocate for changing/updating an instrument or it's inner workings just because they are old and out-dated. The way I see it... we wouldn't want a different builder coming along and completely changing or disposing of one of our instruments, and likewise, we wouldn't want to do that to another builder, regardless of whether they are still around or long-gone. Unfortunately, this is not the case at Saint Thomas Church. The fact is, that has already happened in the past, on multiple occasions, to this organ.

Antoni's (shall we say 'constructive') criticism would not be undue if the Aeolian-Skinner at St. Thomas Church was the instrument today that G. Donald Harrison had left it, and even more so if it were the instrument that E.M. Skinner had originally conceptualized. However, that is not the case. This organ has a very sordid history, and through many alterations over the years (original wind chests replaced due to water/construction damage, many rounds of extensive re-voicing, complete ranks of pipework replaced altogether), the organ Antoni played 10 years ago, and the organ that was removed earlier this year, no longer accurately resembles the products of E.M. Skinner or Aeolian-Skinner. I will also add that, while I would have advocated for sampling the instrument before deconstruction, doing so would not have been an accurate representation, either, and doing so would not have saved a historic organ. It would have saved a once-historic organ that has been subsequently altered many times over it's life.

I also find arguments and comments that reference Gerre Hancock to be somewhat invalid. I feel these come from people who have no real connection with the project at Saint Thomas Church and don't know the history. I certainly can't speak on behalf of him, nor can anyone else, but I've also heard on numerous occasions that anyone who knew Gerre in any close regard knew that he, himself, was not satisfied with the instrument, always having to work around it's shortcomings, just as John Scott did and subsequent organists have done up until this date.

Please know that I don't mean to cause argument or to say "I'm right, you're wrong." Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and certainly everyone has their own tastes for what makes an organ "superb." Obviously, the folks at Saint Thomas Church did not share the opinion that their organ was superb, and yes, they made the ultimate decision to replace it with an instrument that suits their needs, and no one can deny them their right to make that decision. This project is many years in the making, and such decisions were not carried out on a whim, but were given very careful forethought and consideration, as has every detail of the the new instrument.

I must also say that this response isn't coming from Dobson Pipe Organ Builders on any formal behalf, but my own personal feelings. I won't idly sit by and let anyone paint the picture that some "new" organ company is coming along and destroying an instrument. This just isn't the case. In fact, the company's history of many successful instruments, careful attention to detail and design, and high quality of craftsmanship in all aspects is the reason for being chosen to build the new instrument.

I'd invite anyone to come and listen to (perhaps even play if opportunities arise) the new Dobson organ at Saint Thomas Church once it's completed. Sure, you may not like it (again, everyone has their tastes), but you also just might find that it's a vast improvement over the previous instrument.
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Benjamin K. Hoskins
Dobson Pipe Organ Builders, Ltd.

"Without music, life would be an error."
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Antoni Scott

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostSun Oct 23, 2016 2:31 pm

To be fair to Mr. Hoskins response, I was actually referring to the organ in its present form, or at least what it was like some ten years ago. I heard the organ back in 1958 for the first time and, of course, recently, if you consider ten years ago to be recent. My criticism would be to those that made the ultimate decision to change the original organ. What do they know that Skinner or Aeolian-Skinner didn't know. In my opinion, nothing.
I was not referring to the original organ by Skinner, or the G. Donald Harrison version. Of course, there will always be organists that criticize the present organ upon which they play, this will never change. I look at a pipe organ from the 1600's, 1700's, and all the way to the present to be a work of art and a snap-shot of that point in history. One would never consider reconditioning a Rembrandt painting by changing it to today's tastes in art.
My colleagues in France, one of whom has the impressive title of "organ advisor to the City of Paris", shared his dismay at the once magnificent Cavaille-Coll at Notre-Dame now in its present form. Some say it is totally unrecognizable from the original. The volume levels are now deafening, the Barker Lever is gone, and all the chests being converted to electro-pneumatic, wind pressures changed, etc. It was relayed to me that Cavaille-Coll once claimed this to be his favorite instrument. The same type of alterations have recently happened at St. Clotilde. The present instrument is nothing like the original just 20 years ago, although it was said that Tournemire was dissatisfied with the original as well. The organ at the Madelaine was electrified decades ago but I think it at least retained unaltered Cavaille-Coll stops. Gonzales just added more stops. Here in the USA, the fine Aeolian-Skinner organ at Wall Street was replaced with a M&O digital organ. Fortunately, the M&O is a magnificent digital organ but my point is, "what is to become of the pipe organ".
I am sure the Dobson organ company is a fine organ company who's craftsmanship will be well appreciated in years to come. My argument is not with them at all. Lastly, I'm not sure if the statement "It's reassuring to know there are people out there, like Antoni, who have such high regard for significant and historic instruments" was tongue in cheek, or not, but I stand by my original statement that the Aeolian-Skinner should have been sampled before removal.
Antoni Scott
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dhm

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Re: St. Thomas Episcopal Church, NY

PostWed Nov 30, 2016 3:04 pm

lupham wrote:....I hear at first it was too loud and they had to turn it down. Lynn

I was in New York for Thanksgiving last week, and arrived in town just in time to attend Choral Evensong on the Feast of St Cecilia - a real Howells-Fest, with his "Collegium Regale" canticles and his Hymn for St Cecilia (to words by Ursula Vaughan Williams).
If what Lynn says is true, then I think they turned it down too much. :D
It sounded good, and would probably have been fine if everybody was sitting in the Quire; but from about a dozen rows back in the Nave I felt it was under-powered and need a bit more "oomph".
Douglas Henn-Macrae
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http://www.midi-organs.eu

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