More Than Two Manuals?

When I was using the trial version of Hauptwerk, I noticed that I could save registrations in a division, but when I hit another piston I programmed, wanting to change not only the stops in one division, but also I wanted to take out couplers (or add them), I wasn't able to on the St. Anne's organ.

Now that I have the Hauptwerk Advanced edition, the coupling system blows me away. I can save literally any kind of combination, on my organ (Hereford) and have control of a crescendo pedal. It's incredible, And I haven't even explored the feature of floating divisions.

It made me think the other day, what exactly would be the benefit of having more than two manuals? I understand that you can have a keyboard ready with a unique set of sounds, without having to hit a button, but when you can send the Great to Swell, Great to Solo, Solo to Great, Solo to Choir or Choir to Great, there's so much you can customize!

With only two hands, then, why would someone need three or four manuals (if you can only play two at once)? Besides convienience? I guess it is the difference between someone using a computer keyboard for their "pistons" instead of a state of the art monitor that doubles as a touchscreen, a bigger is better mentality.

That is good and fine, but I still don't think there is anything I can't do now that I could do having more than two manuals.

[mdyde]

When I was using the trial version of Hauptwerk, I noticed that I could save registrations in a division, but when I hit another piston I programmed, wanting to change not only the stops in one division, but also I wanted to take out couplers (or add them), I wasn't able to on the St. Anne's organ.

Now that I have the Hauptwerk Advanced edition, the coupling system blows me away. I can save literally any kind of combination, on my organ (Hereford) and have control of a crescendo pedal. It's incredible, And I haven't even explored the feature of floating divisions.

Hello rtucker9,

Glad to hear you're enjoying the Advanced Edition.

Just to clarify, there isn't actually any difference in the in the registration/MIDI/combinations capabilities of the Advanced Edition compared to the trail version or Free Edition per-se. Hauptwerk's master combinations ('View | Large controls panels | Registration') and master couplers ('View | Large control panels | Master couplers') are available in all of them, and for all organs, for example. The only relevant difference would be that the Advanced Edition can load bigger sample sets, and copy-protected ones, such as the Hereford sample set, and those sample sets may have more combination/coupler capabilities incorporated natively in their virtual consoles than St. Anne's does on its virtual console.

Mr. Dyde,

Thanks so much for your fast feedback. I am truly falling more in love with Hauptwerk by the day

And I just realized why I said that wrong. I was not using the right pistons! I was using the manual-specific pistons and not the ones at the bottom of the screen (stepper generals are they?) so I should have used those ones and even in the trial version I could have done what I can do now with the Advanced Ed. Thanks.

[mdyde]

Thanks. You're very welcome. Glad to hear you're enjoying it.

With only two hands, then, why would someone need three or four manuals (if you can only play two at once)? Besides convienience? I guess it is the difference between someone using a computer keyboard for their "pistons" instead of a state of the art monitor that doubles as a touchscreen, a bigger is better mentality.

That is good and fine, but I still don't think there is anything I can't do now that I could do having more than two manuals.

You are right. With floating divisions actuated by a few strategically placed thumb pistons, you should be able to do almost anything organ literature asks for. It requires a bit training though, it is counterintuitive to press pistons instead of switching manuals, and you have to make sure you press the correct pistons! It becomes even more involved when you need to switch manuals and change registrations at the same time. But a little bit of training should solve it. Indeed, there are professional organists who prefer a simple two manual console over something more complicated.

There is an exception: actually you can play on more than two manuals at once. See the performances of Cameron Carpenter, for example this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygb-IQNUCJI. CC makes good use of all 4/5 manuals and pistons anyway.

I have an arrangement of Elgar's Nimrod for organ. On the score it suggests the registration and then indicates the required manual changes as you play the piece.

It has been written for a three manual organ and, if I follow the two manual approach with piston changes, I always end up with the manuals in the "wrong" order. I feel that I need another piston change to get my hands unwrapped!

So, yes, it is really down to convenience. My (very limited) experience suggests that two manuals is a good starting point, three is an excellent solution, four is slightly better but the law of diminishing returns ramps up very quickly after three.

Regards,

I started out nearly 10 years ago converting a two manual Rodgers console to HW. With the floating keyboard assignments it was simple to set up positions to manage the assignment of physical keyboards to a specific organ manual to play 3 manual sample sets. Sometimes, though, the acrobatics required to make sure the keyboards were properly assigned as a piece progressed got to be a bit much.

I rebuilt my console to accept a 3rd manual, simplifying life greatly. I still use floating assignments to manage 4 manual instruments — but manual changes are generally far less frequently required while playing.

Some of this would be greatly facilitated if floating keyboard controls could be included in the capture action, but there appear to be differences in the way these controls and normal stop controls are managed internally in HW that have not (as yet, at least) made this possible.

[mdyde]

Some of this would be greatly facilitated if floating keyboard controls could be included in the capture action, but there appear to be differences in the way these controls and normal stop controls are managed internally in HW that have not (as yet, at least) made this possible.

Hello Grant,

We do have it logged as an enhancement request for the future.

I still don't think there is anything I can't do now that I could do having more than two manuals.

There is a playing technique that I use quite often referred to as "thumbing". That's where you play/hold a chord with 3 or 4 fingers of your hand on a manual and reach down to the next lower manual with the thumb to play an .appropriate note(s). This can be done with either hand altho I mostly do it with the right hand. The left hand is used on a third manual to play a counter melody or a chord. 3 manuals are a minimum in my book esp on.a theatre organ. And, yes, I know Wurli (and others) built many 2M's.

Rgds,
Ed

Some of this would be greatly facilitated if floating keyboard controls could be included in the capture action, but there appear to be differences in the way these controls and normal stop controls are managed internally in HW that have not (as yet, at least) made this possible.

Hello Grant,

We do have it logged as an enhancement request for the future.

HI, Martin ..

Yes, I know. Just thought I'd get in another plug

The left hand is used on a third manual to play a counter melody or a chord. 3 manuals are a minimum in my book esp on.a theatre organ. And, yes, I know Wurli (and others) built many 2M's.

Another configuration for adopting 3 manuals into 2 that works well for theatre organ is to configure the Solo (3rd) manual within the top 2 octaves of the Accomp; a keysplit if you will. Then transpose that 'embedded' keyboard down 1 octave. So the Solo manual is the last 2 octaves of the Accompaniment with note C4 (MIDI note 72) playing middle C. Easy to configure with HW and what great forethought to allow this!

I picked up this clever configuration from attending a TO concert in New England many years ago. The 2 manual Wurlitzer had an electronic relay and by flipping a switch, 2nd touch voices became 1st touch voices on the Accompaniment an octave lower with the C4 keysplit of course. Thus the artist wasn't lacking for a 3rd keyboard.

Danny B.
Friends will help you move,
Good friends will help you move bodies,
True friends help you move organs!

Reading through the above comments I see that most refer to 3 manuals.

Many organs have more than three manuals, is there much to be gained by having four
or more manuals or is it a case of diminishing returns as you add more.

csw900

For the majority of works, two manuals is really quite sufficient. However, there are many pieces that require three - if not only for convenience. Ones such piece that immediately springs to mind is the Saent-Saens Fantasie in Eb. Not only is it almost essential that it be played on a three manual, it is also scored accordingly as are many other pieces. The other issue is thumbing as mentioned above. Yet again such a movement as found in Widor V really requires the use of a third manual for an accurate and authentic performance. Of course, it is possible to play these pieces on a two manual but the original effect desired by the composer will be impossible to achieve
Going to four is perhaps an unwarranted luxury unless you are Cameron Carpenter or Hector Olivera where you might be thumbing both above and below. However, much of this extreme technical playing is only really required for orchestral transcriptions.
Going to five or more is rather pandering to the "mine is bigger / better/ faster than yours" syndrome. It may help to clear the mind into divisions but in practical terms, even with the best ergonomics, reaching to the fifth manual is definitely going to result in a compromise of balance and sensible playing position.
So two manuals is sufficient. Three manuals is useful. Four manuals is convenient but generally unnecessary and anything more is over indulgence.
Having said that; before the advent of steppers and multiple general piston control plus light action drawstops, I can see that the provision of as many manuals as possible would have been more desirable.
I have recently sampled an organ which had an "Independent pedal" stop. By this, it was possible to have the pedal stops working only on the bottom octave whilst the rest of the pedalboard could be used for any of the coupled manuals without the pedal stops sounding.
It was interesting from the approach of extemporisation and possibly the odd orchestral transcription and obviously the organist finds it invaluable on occasions however, I really can't see it becoming an obligatory feature of organs in the future.

While switching registrations quickly via the c/a is possible, on some pieces where only one or a few notes need a different (accent) sound, switch combinations can be quite a nuisance esp when there are other things going on such as the use of both feet simultaneously with the manuals. Quite nice to have prepared an additional manual to be ready to play those few notes or phrases without having to think in terms of a piston and then having to switch back to the original registration. That is unless someone wants to play the "simplified" version of such a piece.

I had a concept a while back of having multiple manuals mounted 90 degrees apart from each other. Initially it seems weird, but I've done it several times with a (piano) keyboard 90 degrees off to the right of the console. I sure won't say it is easy, but rather possible, if you really want to do it. Maybe there might be a means to use one's nose to change combinations as in oy verh ?

Rgds,
Edi

I think it significant that out of all of the VPO systems we have built there was only one 2-manual organ and that was for a small church. All of the organists who bought organs for their home use have purchased 3-manual or 4-manual consoles. How many pieces out there REQUIRE 4-manual and how many of them would really need 4 physical manuals and not do well with floating division manuals?

Thomas