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Voicing: headphones or speakers?

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profeluisegarcia

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Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostWed Mar 08, 2017 11:08 pm

After re-reading insightful Jeffry´s lecture** about voicing, what would be the best way to voice a given organ: with headphones or with speakers?, dry or surround version? stereo or multichannel?
Any suggestion, folks, please?

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9868&p=72156#p72156 [Link edited by admin to make it clickable.]

Luis
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organtechnology

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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 1:00 am

profeluisegarcia wrote:After re-reading insightful Jeffry´s lecture** about voicing, what would be the best way to voice a given organ: with headphones or with speakers?, dry or surround version? stereo or multichannel?
Any suggestion, folks, please?

**http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9868&p=72156&hilit=voicing+headphones#p72156

Luis


An organ voiced to sound right in the headphones will not sound the same with speakers.
Voicing with speakers is actually matching the organ sounds to the room in a manner to sound like the organ through headphones. So it does not matter whether you are using dry or wet, stereo or multi-channel the idea is to get the room's negative impact on the organ adjusted out. That becomes your starting point for making it sound better.

Thomas
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engrssc

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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 1:38 am

I used to think once a room was "EQ'd" properly, (flat response - adjusting for the room's affect), that all organs would sound their best. While correcting for definite room "defects" helps, I've found it still requires that each organ be fine tuned (voiced) separately.

A room (with speakers) seems to have a greater affect on the sound than does listening via a headphone. Is that true or only my own perception? In that regard, many recording engineers "listen" using a headphone.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 5:55 am

engrssc wrote:A room (with speakers) seems to have a greater affect on the sound than does listening via a headphone. Is that true or only my own perception? In that regard, many recording engineers "listen" using a headphone.

Rgds,
Ed


An EQ mainly affects room modes, but against reflexions and echoes you have to setup insulation. Carpets and curtains are often a proper way, for more effective damping you need absorbers.

In my opinion the most Hauptwerk-players use headphones, so it's the vendor's job to make a proper voicing for these.
Best regards
Thomas

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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 12:41 pm

Having gone through a fairly major upgrade to my audio system recently, I thought I would share my thoughts:

- While it is personal, for me having a high quality speaker system to play HW through is preferable to using headphones.

- However headphones are an important reference for what the speaker system should sound like.

- I consider what I hear through headphones (in my case AKG 712) as what the sample set producer expected in terms of balance and assume that in most cases this is reflective of the real instrument.

- Therefore (for me) getting the speaker system sounding correct, is less about voicing instruments rather than using flat response speakers and tuning the room to maintain the flat response (this is challenging).

- Voicing is a tool I use for changing the characteristics of the instrument to my preference rather than making the instrument work through the audio system.

- Finally I recently appreciated that I had the output on my system simply too loud. While big instruments like Salisbury can be loud on full organ, I believe I have been exaggerating the volume level.
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 1:59 pm

jwillans wrote:
- Finally I recently appreciated that I had the output on my system simply too loud. While big instruments like Salisbury can be loud on full organ, I believe I have been exaggerating the volume level.


Interesting you mention this, I too can blame myself for turning the volume up on my audio system too high. It seems every time I do I almost immediately notice things just don't sound like they should. Not that it gets distorted or anything like that, the overall sound just seems to lose its realism and it's like I'm forcing the sound into the room vs. letting it do it's thing if that explains anything. Since I use wet sets I try to mimic the volume level I'd likely experience out at say a third of the way back in the church from the instrument. There's a few local examples here where I could actually stand for more volume even when the organ is at full tilt, so I try keep this volume thing in mind at home as well and if it's not quite as loud as I like, I'm probably at the right level. The other night I purposely turned the volume down considerably and really enjoyed the way things had a much more natural and realistic sound to them. Certainly could have something to do with my speakers as well but I've really never encountered an organ yet that I think is too loud although I'm sure there's plenty of examples out there.

As for headphones vs. speakers for voicing, I once asked literally the same question here and I will certainly agree with the others, it depends on which you use (speakers or headphones) as both should end up with entirely different outcomes. Same goes for stereo vs. multi-channel, you're going to have different outcomes depending on what you're using as I've found even speaker placement alone without any other change can have a dramatic effect on how things sound, then there's all the routing options that again will dramatically affect the sound. I've literally witnessed stops that were too loud or to the point of annoying, move the speakers or make a routing change and nothing else, and the once annoying stop is suddenly tamed. There's tons of variables that will affect the voicing for sure!

Marc
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 3:36 pm

I think most of the relevant points have been made here, but I will add a few thoughts. There was an interesting thread about voicing a few years back, which you can find here.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14111

I agree with the others here who said you have to do your voicing with the sound equipment that you will be using most when you play, whether it be speakers or headphones. NB: If you have several versions of the organ (dry/wet, front/back, etc) your voicing will not transfer from one version to the other! I learned my lesson early on with my first sample set, Ménéstérol, which had multiple versions including a third-party extended set. I had to redo the adjustments for each version. If you use speakers while voicing make sure you are sitting in the exact same position all the time, especially your head alignment, as this makes a big difference in perception. Oddly, sometimes a sound which is too loud can sound too soft, or vice versa because of our alignment.

One mistake I made which caused me to redo some voicing was having the subwoofer on while I used my headphones. Of course the result was skewed.

It is interesting to be able to compare the results between versions, not just dry/wet etc. which sound different anyway, but with similar-sounding versions, for example an original and a premium version. I often check this way to see if I like my altered results or if I have gone completely astray. Of course this is time-consuming…

I find my most successful alterations are in evening up the volume of pipes within a rank, especially pedal notes, and making individual ranks louder or softer. Happy voicing!
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 09, 2017 4:30 pm

Hi robsig,

I see you dug up one of my old posts! :lol: Yes, at the time I had recently purchased the St. Max set and had fiddled around it with for awhile with voicing and so on. One thing I really had a problem with at first were some of the pedal notes were very strong, especially the 8 and 16' flutes, they would just boom, I also could not get the Cromorne 8' to sound decent, it was always either too loud or too quiet, I couldn't get it to 'play nice' with the rest of the set and this really had me stumped for awhile. At the time I ended up doing some rather extensive voicing to the entire instrument and although I was able to tame the pedal notes and a few other things, it turned out in the end the instrument sounded better but it then had a rather flat and dull sound to it, almost like it was too perfectly tuned and balanced in some areas but still problems in others. It didn't have any of that good up and down variation in it between notes like you might expect to hear on the real instrument and the Cromorne still stunk. So, here's a case of yes, you can over-voice. I ended up coming up with a new idea for some speaker placement and audio routing scheme at the time and as soon as I played the instrument with the current voicing and this new positioning and routing it was really off and sounded even worse. I went in and hit the re-set to original voicing as it came out of the box, made a minor adjustment to my sub by turning it down a hair and it the St. Max now sounds better than ever, including a great Cromorne and now NO voicing involved whatsoever!

Marc
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 7:51 am

¡Thanks folks¡ I will use different HW configurations for voicing speakers and voicing headphones in my favorite organs.
Now... ears to work¡
Luis
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 12:15 pm

Also a very important aspect is to be careful to have the volume where you want it, and at the same level each time you work on the voicing, At each volume level different sounds will stand out or not.

RS
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostFri Mar 10, 2017 12:31 pm

Hello Marc.

I just spent 6 hours standing next to the Helmut Wollf French classical organ in Redpath Hall at McGill University. It's an amazing instrument and I believe the first French classical organ to be built in North America in modern times (1981). It was a real education to listen to a marathon of pieces from the Livre d'Orgue de Montreal, I got to hear every variation of classical registration as there were 50 organists playing from 9 am to 11 pm. (I actually bailed out at 3 pm…)

What struck me that day: Cromhornes are very loud, almost like trumpets, especially if reinforced by another stop or 2. When available an oboe 8 makes a similar but gentler solo sound.The Cornet du récit was very loud as well. The 8' Montre on the GO was quite gentle, and definitely usable as a soft accompaniment stop. The other sounds were pretty much as I am used to hearing them.

When I was in France last summer I heard quite a few organs, and in all the large spaces the organists would couple similar stops to make a bigger sound (multiple montre 8's, flute 8's etc.) In a large church I rarely heard a single stop used alone. Purity of timbre was sacrificed to overall effect.
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 30, 2017 9:20 pm

By all means use headphones. It is imperative that you use a good pair of headphones such as AKG 701's or 702's. Speakers, as good as some can sound, all color their sound somewhat. In other words they impart their own sound color characteristic on top of the real sound it is trying to reproduce. Headphones do the same, but with good ones, to a far lesser degree.

If you voice the organ using headphones, you will get different results than with speakers. It can get very frustrating. If you use wet samples with speakers, you will compound the problem by adding room acoustics on top of the wet sample acoustics. I think that Mixture stop sound is most affected by room acoustics.
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Mar 30, 2017 9:25 pm

The problem I see with using headphones is that effectively you are voicing as to what it should be rather than what it is. That being taking into account the room's acoustics as well as what the speakers add to "it" or don't.

Pipe organ builders "pre-voice" at their facility to their best, but than "re-voice" after installation in the room where the pipes are installed. Two different things

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 8:47 am

All:
The debate between using headphones vs. speakers is interesting. Initially when I got my Hauptwek system, I had an eight channel audio amp (two channels for the three manuals and two for the pedals). I had a bunch of stereo speakers available so that I thought my audio was ready. I quickly learned that each pair of speakers ( all excellent stereo speakers in their own right) all performed very differently. They especially colored the sound different than another pair. i swapped out pairs to different manuals thinking that I may maximizes or better match a pair to a division using my largest speakers for the pedals.

A few inquiries to sample set producers was very helpful. One sample set producer (Dr. Maier of Art Organs) said to use headphones or Genelec speakers. The Genelecs were stunning but Oh so expensive !!!!! A pair would be insufficient to really compliment the dynamic range of the Hauptwerk organs. Eight speakers would be far better but would bankrupt my finances. Also, from a practical point of view, this approach was out of the real of what Hauptwerk meant to me, an affordable system. But none-the-less, this approach was really the best way to go. He also highly recommended AKG 701's (which were the top of the line headphones back in 2008). This recommendation was also backed up by Brett Milan. This also brings me to another point, when individuals like Brett and Dr. Maier recommend something, one should really listen. Neither of them would recommend inferior equipment that would detract from the superiority of their products.

Back to my dilemma, speakers vs headphones. I shopped around for Genelecs and had a rare opportunity to compare Genelecs side by side with Focal's. Both speakers were outstanding. I understand that speaker choice is a subjective choice rather than objective. Volume and loudness were not the highest of my priorities but realism of reproduction was and still is. Take the stop called the Bourdon. It is rather devoid of upper harmonics and even in real life it has an uncanny ability to blend with other stops. On its own it is a dull sound. This sampled Bourdon is also affected by the microphone position, quality of the technology used and is also very affected by the acoustics of the room in which it was recorded. The issue is compounded by the fact that the speakers play into a different room acoustic in which it was recorded This all gets very complicated and can be frustrating. So when a person hears a fantastic Hauptwerk organ playing in a room it is not surprising at all to me that this organ can sound very different than what you hear in its own environment. I accepted this fact long ago. So no matter how good speakers are, it is unreasonable to expect them to reproduce the sound exactly as one would hear in its original environment.



Take headphones. The "open back" design of AKG's 701's and now 702's, don't totally block the exterior sounds. Some headphones do isolate the ear from any room noise. But in both cases, the room acoustics in which the headphone user is situated does not affect the sound heard to the same degreee as speakers. It is for this reason that I think that headphones would reproduce sound color more realistically than speakers. Granted, the headphones do not give the same effect of the low pedal stops or those rich Diapason sounds in the bottom octave register. But the impression that I get (or miss) is also a result of the pressure waves created by low notes. I get around this issue by using a good sub-woofer along with my good headphones. It may not be as good as a full range of speakers (like a 32 channel set-up) but it fits my budget.

Sorry about the long answer but I think this is an important topic. I would recommend that voicing be done using headphones.
Antoni
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Re: Voicing: headphones or speakers?

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 11:47 am

Antoni Scott wrote:I would recommend that voicing be done using headphones.


If headphones are all you plan to use, fine. Or if using HW's recording facility, fine. In my environment (and probably many/most) it simply won't work.

I have never found a need to "voice" my AKG-701s (at least not to level volume pipe to pipe). Almost everything sounds good out of the box. But speakers — I have strong room resonances in the bottom two octaves of most 8' stops that have a lot of fundamental (principals, flutes). For some ranks I have to drop the level of A# (as one of many examples) in the bottom octave by 10-15 dB with speakers, although it sounds fine on the headphones. Now I suppose I could treat the room itself, but I can't afford the public relations consultant that would be required to sell my spouse on the idea of turning her living room into the perfect playing environment ;-)

Of course, this creates a bit of a problem when playing using headphones, but I'd rather live with a few notes being "light" than the room resonances that completely destroy everything when playing through my sound system. When I moved the instrument into a new house, I had to re-voice every sample set to the new space.

So, I'd rather live with a compromise when using headphones. I don't really think there's a good alternative answer other than installing everything on two HW instances, one for headphones/recording and one for speakers, and voicing each instance appropriately.
Grant

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