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Amplifiers & speakers

A discussion forum for anything even marginally Hauptwerk-related.

Amplifiers & speakers

Postby engrssc » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:40 pm

I sure wish there was a better way to "introduce" that perfect sound other than speaker (systems) and amplifiers. Maybe I'm alone, but it's frustrating knowing what the real sound (in this case real pipes) sounds and feels like and having to settle for an imperfect imitation of the real thing. (Never guess what I've been doing :? )

Maybe someday medical blue tooth implants or something even better? :roll:

Just noticed the post counter says 5K for me. Nah, can't be. I'm not that old. :shock:

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby organtechnology » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:00 am

engrssc wrote:I sure wish there was a better way to "introduce" that perfect sound other than speaker (systems) and amplifiers. Maybe I'm alone, but it's frustrating knowing what the real sound (in this case real pipes) sounds and feels like and having to settle for an imperfect imitation of the real thing. (Never guess what I've been doing :? )

Maybe someday medical blue tooth implants or something even better? :roll:

Just noticed the post counter says 5K for me. Nah, can't be. I'm not that old. :shock:

Rgds,
Ed


Well you started in 2005 and made an average of 416 posts per year. Most of which were coherent. :)
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby PhantomoftheOrgan » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:34 am

Congrats on your 5k posts! Wow!

I also experience frustration getting the organ from the circuits into my brain. The technology has only just begun to develop. Maybe some day...
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby PhantomoftheOrgan » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:21 pm

I am amazed at how good Hauptwork can sound for just a few hundred dollars for a computer, midi keyboard, Hauptwerk software and the included organ, and a good set of headphones. It blows my mind how good it sounds. I am thankful for it.
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby engrssc » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:16 pm

For sure, I'm not negative on Hauptwerk. The word is fantastic. My "problem" is with the hardware that connects
after the sound card as in amps and speakers. And mine are quite good overall. 8)

And Thomas, I joined the H/W Forum in '05, but was "lurking" since early '03. I still have the first software Martin created under Crumhorn Labs. Between '03 and '05, I was "busy" with Jim Henry's MidiTzer Forum and still visit occasionally. Had quite a few posts there as well. And even before that, with the Schober folks.. I know there are some that hadn't heard of Schober and maybe not MidiTzer either. :wink:
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby organtechnology » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:34 pm

Maybe Ed is not too far away from the answer with the implants!!

If we look at the recording and playback environment a little closer it becomes evident that the recording equipment required to capture an organ needs to be placed in the sound field the organ generates so that the microphones can capture all of the spectral dynamics in such a manner that they can be reproduced by speakers and/or headphones in a totally convincing way.

Human hearing is variable with respect to sound pressure level, frequency, phase and direction. What I mean by this is that the frequency response of hearing is affected by how loud the sound is (SPL), the direction from which it comes and even the combination of frequencies that make up the sound. Fletcher-Munson Curves of SPL vs. Hz vs. Perceived Loudness are an example of this. Because of this, if an organ is recorded in a specific range of frequency and SPL, then it must be reproduced to provide the same frequency and SPL to be perceived as 'accurate'. The most simplistic way to do this is the Binaural recording of a Stereo Sound Field of a particular SPL and playing it back over a set of transducers capable of recreating exactly the original sound field.

Today that means a set of really good headphones and low frequency shakers to provide a realistic reproduction.

Tomorrow maybe bluetooth implants. :wink:
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby engrssc » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:55 pm

At least, so far, I'm not "standing" alone. A while back, I was reading of research being done to assist hearing impaired (almost deaf) individuals. Hence some of my thinking in a broader "organistic" way. Getting the sound "information" to the parts that register sound for us is what this is all about. As far as implanted power, the battery in my (implanted) pace maker has lasted 7 years and just was replaced 2 months ago. I've asked my heart doctor why such a battery couldn't be recharged by inductive means which would eliminate the need for this replacement surgery. :wink:

Speaking of heart surgery, I'm waiting for an appointment (soon) as it seems one of my heart valves is leaking which isn't the correct way. On my exam of last Monday, among other medical stuff, doc wrote I have an extended SOB condition. (Shortness Of Breathe) in case you were wondering. Right now, I can't do stairs and walking just a short distance, need to stop to catch my breathe. All heart related.

Back to sound stuff, have you every struck a tuning fork and placed it on the bone just below your ear? Conductively speaking, you can experience that tone very loud and clearly. I guess all this is a simplistic observation and someone(s) much smarter than me need to make something like this work. 8)

Rgds,
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby TheOrganDoc » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:55 pm

Hi Ed,
Did-ja ever notice that the industry still calls dem-tings "Speakers",
---- (NOT REPRODUCERS ? ? ? ? ? :roll: )
The first speakers I saw actual utilized a horseshoe Magnet or a Huge Electromagnetic Coil !
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby David Baldwin » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:33 pm

The first version of Hauptwerk was pre Crumhorn Labs. I bought it for either £35 or ,£70. The keys on one manual turned red when played and the other blue.
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby engrssc » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:35 pm

TheOrganDoc wrote:Huge Electromagnetic Coil !


I have an old (but still works) Philco tube type radio my folks had with such an arrangement of a coil. The coil was part of the power supply. You have to be careful around the speaker, you could experience some B+

Kinda miss that soothing hum when some of the power transformer laminations got a little loose. That radio covered the AM band and short wave as well.

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TRe: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby Jon Hammond » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:45 am

Thanks for the memories guys. Especially about Crum horn labs software prior to when I got hauptwerk for Christmas 2002. Much better than Schober. Wish I had never obtained the schematics. Spent too many hours trying to replicate them with poor results. Has anyone tried quadra phonic gaming headphones with hauptwork?
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby scottherbert » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:46 pm

I understand the lament. Is there a better way to reproduce sound? I've seen some things, the name escapes me, that can be attached to drywall, plastic panels, etc. to make the entire panel vibrate to make sound. Something like the "butt shakers" do for bass, but full range. I have no clue how well they work, but it's an example of a different approach. :wink:

~S
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Re: Amplifiers & speakers

Postby Antoni Scott » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:20 am

Amplifiers, and especially speakers, can cost a fortune. Unfortunately, with Hauptwerk, being able to afford the speaker system is the difference between Hauptwerk sounding Ho-Hum and Hauptwerk sounding fantastic. Since the origin (Hauptwerk) of the sound is as close to the real thing as you can get, the speakers can change all that. I did a lot of experimenting and a lot of research on speakers and speaker systems.

My own personal experience showed me that Genelec speakers were the best with Focal speakers a close second. But they are expensive. Dr. Maier, of OrganArt technology, told me that Genelec speakers were his top choice. After an agonizing A-B comparison, I bought a pair of the Focal's with the 6-1/2" speakers because they sounded just as good as the Genelec's but were less expensive. Both had built in amplifiers. Like the Genelec's, they have excellent clarity and presence.

I had a set (six) of Definitive Technology speakers but found them to have less clarity in such stops as a Bourdon and Cor de Nuit. It seemed that they "colored" the sound somewhat. I could get much more volume out of them which wasn't a high priority for me.

I was able to get a speaker system from a 1970's Rodgers organ that had a dozen 6x9's in each cabinet for each manual (36 speakers in total) . I was actually surprised how good they sounded. Although the speakers looked like cheap JBL's, the sound was spread over a large number of sound producing elements which probably made the sound acceptable. They took up a lot of room, however. There was an immense 300lb pedal speaker cabinet that contained two 15' (or bigger !!!) woofers which originally was for a single 32' pedal Violone stop. It sounded fantastic, every bit as good as my sub-woofer, but more that tens times larger !!!!.
I also had access to a pair of 1970's vintage Acoustic Research AR-9's which were exceptional speakers even today. Like the Genelec's and Focal's , they seemed to have extreme clarity and presence.

Today, speakers are much smaller, which is good for Hauptwerk home owners. Like everything, it all depends on how much you can afford. Deciding what's best for you can drive you crazy. The only way to be able to accurately do this is to compare, side by side, your top two choices through your Hauptwerk set up and in your acoustic environment. Any other way will just frustrate you.

My situation is much much easier today. Since I now live in a condominium surrounded by quiet neighbors, I use a pair of AKG 701 headphones with my Focal subwoofer. I actually got the headphones back in 2008 as a recommendation from Bret Milan. Headphones, like speakers, can vary widely. The 701's are still, in my opinion, the best for the money. I got them on sale for $250. I see Senheiser headphones out there for $1500. Hmmm. The 701's have a wide and flat response and do not color the sound as much as speakers do. A 32' Principal or 32' Bourdon sound very clear. Since headphones do not move the air like speakers do, the low feeling of large pipes is missing so the sub-woofer works well.
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