Search:
Submit Search


Where to find a really good voicer

A discussion forum for anything even marginally Hauptwerk-related.

Where to find a really good voicer

Postby engrssc » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:04 pm

This is a question, not an answer.

Last one I called said 'I only do pipes. Know nothing about virtuals'.

Any authoritative reading material? Stop sound libraries as related to sample(d) sets? Seems you need to have a mental 'image' of what a stop really should sound like. Fairly hard to describe detailed sounds with words alone. I would prefer some single notes in several ranges, then some harmonies if time permits. Repeat this 10 times till that sound sinks in.Then we might have something. 8)

I can balance, remove peaks, etc, but the result most likely doesn't sound as does the real stop. Haven't found any sample set producers uploading single stop demos. Demos are all about composites for the most part. To me (and a few hundred others), it's all about how it sounds. :o

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5071
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby josq » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:40 am

For most Hauptwerk users, voicing is not an issue, and should not be an issue. What most users (should) want, is accurate sound reproduction. The starting point is high-quality samples recorded at an ideal position. Ideally, you want the samples to sound exactly the same in the room as they sound at the recording position.

The organ builder has done the voicing, the sample set producers have spent their very best efforts to record the pipes in their natural acoustics. Now it's up to you (or your Hauptwerk organ/speaker setup builder) to get the sound reproduction right. In technical terms, this means that you want your speakers to generate a flat frequency response curve

In most cases, nothing impacts reliable sound reproduction so negatively as room acoustics. In almost any room specific frequencies may get boosted or damped by 10 dB or more. So room correction (software and/or hardware) is one of the first things you'll need if you want to improve "voicing". A lot of information is available on the forum and on the internet in general.

There is however an exception: if reliable sound production is not your goal, if you want to leave your room acoustics as is (for example when using Hauptwerk in a church environment) and if you want to adjust the voicing of your samples to your room and not vice versa, then voicing might be the right thing to do. But even in that case, room correction software might do most of the job for you.
josq
Member
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby monorganist » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:49 am

engrssc wrote: Haven't found any sample set producers uploading single stop demos.


I remember there are some single stop demos by Organ Art Media (click on the stop names):
http://www.organartmedia.com/en/sauer/50.html
http://www.organartmedia.com/en/trost/15.html
monorganist
Member
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:44 am
Location: Spain

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby 1961TC4ME » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:37 am

engrssc wrote:This is a question, not an answer.

Last one I called said 'I only do pipes. Know nothing about virtuals'.

Any authoritative reading material? Stop sound libraries as related to sample(d) sets? Seems you need to have a mental 'image' of what a stop really should sound like. Fairly hard to describe detailed sounds with words alone. I would prefer some single notes in several ranges, then some harmonies if time permits. Repeat this 10 times till that sound sinks in.Then we might have something. 8)

I can balance, remove peaks, etc, but the result most likely doesn't sound as does the real stop. Haven't found any sample set producers uploading single stop demos. Demos are all about composites for the most part. To me (and a few hundred others), it's all about how it sounds. :o

Rgds,
Ed


Hi Ed,

I understand your dilemma exactly and I too asked a very similar question some time back. How do you figure out if the stop you are voicing sounds like it should? AND, another question I had at the time pertained to how do we know if the stop is at the proper amplitude in comparison to the others in the set? I think much of it is done by ear, how the stop is perceived, and some are better at it than others, in other words it's a craft that's acquired over time and everyone's craft is a bit different brew. Due to the fact every builder's example of a given stop is going to sound a bit different than the next builder, listening to an example stop gets you in the ballpark, but doesn't fully do the job, at least for me anyways. I take time to listen carefully to a real example of the organ in question, listen to several different recordings to get an overall picture, again not perfect but at least you are hearing the instrument in question.

When I voice I go one stop at a time, starting with the front portion of the set, then the rear or surround, diffuse portion, etc., I only have one signal (front, rear, etc.) on at a time so as not to influence in any way what I'm currently working on. For each stop, one at a time, I play several notes from low to high and I note the clarity and brightness along with amplitude and try set myself in the room and ask myself if it sounds correct to the acoustic. Sometimes closing my eyes and repeatedly listening and adjusting helps. Once I get the sound in my head (clarity, brightness, amplitude) and adjust to where I am happy with that stop, I move to the next one. Some stops seem to come real easy to me (i.e., this stop is way too loud, or way too bright) and I can quickly adjust it and move to the next, others take more listening before I make a decision.

I generally find mixtures, some 2' and 1' are the stops that jump out the most and when the instrument is first played without voicing, these stops can be quite often obnoxious. This is likely 100% my sound system and how my speakers respond that exaggerates the situation, but there's the beauty of the voicing facility. Early on I was constantly fiddling with increasing / decreasing the treble and bass response on my amps, next thing I knew was I'd load another set and I was back at it turning knobs again. Overall I find most of the sets I have are pretty spot on for voicing out of the box, especially the newer sets, and it generally comes down to tweaking brightness up or down more than anything for me anyways.

Marc
1961TC4ME
Member
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:45 pm
Location: Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby anco111 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:09 am

I agree with josq here.

I dont think you should use voicing, unless you want to voice your HW organ to your room, say a church.
If you do use voicing, the organ will not sound the same as it has been recorded, and you might think that the organ sounds better after te voicing, but only you changed how it sounds, to your personal liking.

Also, you can not voice your organ by listening to several different recordings and voice your organ following these recordings. Because, who is to say these recordings and the playback of the recordings are true?

First you need to be sure that your speakers produce a natural sound, without any colouring or leaving a 'fingerprint'. If your speakers dont sound natural, as josq stated, they will change the sound.
(just listen to different sets of speakers, they all sound different, so wich one is true?)

Second, if you have the speakers with the correct response, they play the music into your 'acoustically bad' room. Your shape of the room, walls, furniture, curtains, drapes etc will affect the sound. You need to neutralise this as well by using room correction (hardware or software).

When this is taken care of, you are shure that your speakers (and your room) produce the sound exactly as it is recorded. Now, you have an organ that sounds the same as in real life (if the sample producer did a good job, that is)
anco111
Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby Antoni Scott » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:29 pm

How do you know the stop you are voicing sounds like it should ? This question begs a response not because it shows the lack of any knowledge on the part of the person asking the question but rather how varied the sounds are of a particular stop with the same name. You can take just about any Open Diapason or Principal from several builders and they will all sound different. No one is right and no one is wrong. In fact organ builders will have Principals available as Open Diapason I and Open Diapason II if they are both on the same manual. The scale, pipe material, wind pressure, etc all factor in to determine the final sound. All I can say is that after decades of listening to pipe organs, I could never state that a stop sounds like it should. In fact I would think that pipe organs that all sounded the same would be a very boring thing.

We know that Principals from the early instruments operated on low wind pressure, sometimes they had little or no "knicking" of the languid (to steady the wind flow and prevent "chiffing"), were sometimes made of high percentages of tin to produce brighter sounds, and were usually of smaller scale. These organs had a more delicate sound than more modern higher pressure Principals of the early 20th century. Critics claimed that the higher pressures and excessive knicking caused the pipes to sound "spongy". Some organ builders even resorted to leathering the upper lip of a pipe mouth so as to smooth out the sound.

In the 1920's high pressure craze, Principals could be blown at 15" or 35". Take the Atlantic City organ, where on the Great Organ, there are ten Open Diapasons (I-X) and a Principal, blown from 4" to 35". Each one sounds different. The giant Wanamaker has a similar large array of Open Diapasons.
Antoni Scott
Member
 
Posts: 743
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:18 pm

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby johnstump_organist » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:25 pm

I posted some advice about voicing in the thread below.
You may or may find this helpful for some ideas about setting balances between stops.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16180

John
User avatar
johnstump_organist
Member
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:15 pm
Location: San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato, Mexico

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby RichardW » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:49 am

Antoni Scott wrote:How do you know the stop you are voicing sounds like it should ?

I have had an idea. Why doesn't somebody make a short recording of every pipe and issue those with the sample set? Then you would have a complete set of reference sounds to help you make the comparison.

Oh wait .... ;)


Regards,
Richard
User avatar
RichardW
Member
 
Posts: 733
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:16 am
Location: UK

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby Jan Loosman » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:00 am

RichardW wrote:
Antoni Scott wrote:How do you know the stop you are voicing sounds like it should ?

I have had an idea. Why doesn't somebody make a short recording of every pipe and issue those with the sample set? Then you would have a complete set of reference sounds to help you make the comparison.

Oh wait .... ;)


Regards,


How do you deal with the room acoustics and audio system which also influence the reference sounds?

And isn't a note played via Hauptwerk not already a recording?

Regards Jan
Jan Loosman
Member
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: The Hague, Netherlands

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby NickNelson » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:49 pm

Jan Loosman wrote:And isn't a note played via Hauptwerk not already a recording?


I rather think that was the point of the joke (and I enjoyed it).

Nick
User avatar
NickNelson
Member
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:31 am
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: Where to find a really good voicer

Postby Jan Loosman » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:06 pm

NickNelson wrote:
Jan Loosman wrote:And isn't a note played via Hauptwerk not already a recording?


I rather think that was the point of the joke (and I enjoyed it).

Nick


Yes your right :lol:
English is not my native language and so just missing these subtle hints!

Regards Jan
Jan Loosman
Member
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: The Hague, Netherlands


Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests