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Wind Modeling and detuning.

A discussion forum for anything even marginally Hauptwerk-related.

Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby Antoni Scott » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:24 am

As a Hauptwerk owner for a decade I have come to appreciate the unprecedented realism of the sound my sample sets are able to produce. Comparisons with other digital organ manufacturers are unavoidable but one thing that always stuck in my mind about these digital organs was that they were always in perfect tune. This perfection resulted in a dull, lifeless sound, in my opinion.

With Hauptwerk we have the option to tune, retune, detune or whatever-tune each note for volume, pitch and brilliance to suit our needs. Recently the long awaiting wind modeling became available in the USA, which added immeasurably to the sense of realism to the overall listening experience. Speaking from my own experience and preference I always detune the sample set in one way or another. Better yet, with Surround sample sets, it is possible to take the front and rear sound of the same pipe and slightly detune them from each other. Similarly, I play extensively with the wind modeling to ensure a certain unsteadiness in the sound. If I am not mistaken, I believe that the bigger pipes, which rob wind from the entire rank, cause a slight detuning during large chords.

My question is:
Has anyone come up with a recommended set of detune options, both with the tuning drop down menu and the wind modeling ? I have been experimenting extensively with the Zwolle Surround where I can modify every note and wind modeling. It gives me a sense of realism not experienced with the dead steady winding and tuning.
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Re: Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby Jan Loosman » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:05 am

Detuning is used to give a extra reality to sample sets, random and slight detuning of some pipes in one stop.
However if you play a single pipe, detuning of the dry, diffuse and rear portion differently in one pipe should not be done because it will introduce phase shift giving a sort of tremulant. In real situations this is also impossible.
Playing a single tone must have the same tuning for perspective channels and rears.
As far as i know, Martin knows of this issue and will correct this in future updates.

It would also be nice with voicing that you can connect the dry, diffuse and rear voicing sliders and with voicing only have to perform one voicing per stop and not perform the same voicing for the dry, the diffuse and rear component.

Regards Jan
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Re: Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby Antoni Scott » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:02 am

Loosman: However if you play a single pipe, detuning of the dry, diffuse and rear portion differently in one pipe should not be done because it will introduce phase shift giving a sort of tremulant. In real situations this is also impossible.

Sorry to disagree with you but in real situations this is exactly what happens and in my opinion this gives the organ its character. Have you ever heard of the term "quarreling" ? It is where two pipes on a windchest are in close proximity to each other and the sound emanating from their mouths interferes with each other. The problem can sometimes be corrected by turning the pipe around about one quarter of a turn so that the sound waves don't hit each other. Similarly, pipes from a distant division lose something in its transmission to the listeners ear. Again, it is this "imperfection" that gives the organ such character.
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Re: Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby Jan Loosman » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:34 am

Hello Antoni

I must disagree with you because playing the same note gives the same pitch in the front as wel as the reflected sound.
Also in real life situations.
Why would you want to give the reflected sound another pitch, altough Hauptwerk does this by default in this version. In another topic ( if i remeber well) Martin agreed with this and said it was on the improvement request form for later Hauptwerk versions.
Random detuning is meant for different pipes in the same stop and not to detune front v.s. rear playing the same pipe.
Also the same pipe played should be in sync for the dry and diffuse channels in sets with perspective sliders.
Mixing dry and diffuse is already very tricky because of phase shift from the different mic. positions so why should you also introduce pitch shift in the same notes played.
I think this is not good for a accurate reproduction of a organ pipe.

Regards Jan
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Re: Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby engrssc » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:06 pm

Strictly my opinion. I don't use use the wind model because I don't want to play a wheezy old organ with an inadequate or leaky wind supply. Likewise an organ that has added ranks without regard to increasing or proper regulating the wind supply. Sometimes this issue is also due to too small or restricted wind lines. All of these I consider faults and not why I spend money to get a properly installed organ (sample set.) Again, IMO. :roll:

OTOH, real pipes even after tuning have drifting and other problems naturally. So why add on to these issues? :wink: When I hit that final triumphal Tutti drawn last chord. I don't want the sound to come out as if the organ had too much whisky. :o

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby telemanr » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:51 am

The wind supply aspect does not turn all the sample sets into wheezing organs. Martin would not have implemented this feature if that’s what it did. Read up on what it does and how it’s modelled.
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Re: Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby 1961TC4ME » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:46 pm

As far as the wind modeling goes, I must be doing something wrong because I just can't hear much if any difference in the settings and I believe it is recommended to have it set at 100% for best realism or is that not right? I've went up to 200 and down to 50 and again, it's not had much of an effect on things. Is there a chance some sample sets do not support the wind modeling? I think I did read that somewhere.

As far as de-tuning goes, I've experimented with it a little, only with certain stops, and the results are interesting. I had a chance to attend a mass at our local Basilica of St. Mary last year and the en-chamade at the time (maybe because it was cold out?) was just a hair out of tune and the resulting sound when it is used as a solo up against the rest of the organ is quite pleasing.

From their website: The en-chamade Herald Fanfare is tuba-scale and modeled after examples found on Willis organs in English town halls. Voiced on 25 inches of wind, it is the most commanding stop of its kind in the Upper Midwest. I went home that day and tinkered with some trompettes and slightly de-tuned a few ranks and got very similar results as what I heard earlier that day, pretty neat actually.

Not a perfect example, but you can actually hear it in this very short clip >> https://vimeo.com/71474379

Marc
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Re: Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby telemanr » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:40 pm

I believe the effect of the wind modelling will depend on the organ sample and how it has set up its wind supply.
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Re: Wind Modeling and detuning.

Postby engrssc » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:53 pm

I believe Marc and Rob's comments have provided an insight I hadn't considered. My experience with wind modeling goes back to when it was first released to N America, etc. It happened that I eagerly tried it on a (freebie) sample set that I had recently downloaded. It sounded so bad that I deleted the sample set and decided to never use the wind modeling. Probably a little narrow minded on my part, but that's what sometimes happens.

Based on some of the comments, I tried the W/M again on a newer, different sample set. I found little if any noticeable variation with or without. Maybe slight, but nothing like I recalled with the above (first not good) tryout. The jury is out as to if I want to use it or not. But anyone who likes it and/or detuning, have at it. :roll: Another good thing about Hauptwerk are the available choices. 8)

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