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How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:13 am
by profeluisegarcia
Hello all¡
I found this video very interesting to me...and perhaps for other fellows less HW connoisseurs like me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgWnzBtixIs

Luis

(if it is agains Forum rules, adms. please delete it)

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:28 am
by engrssc
Very interesting. Gives one an even greater respect for what all goes into the process.

Rgds,
Ed

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:50 am
by adri
Too bad, all that hard work resulted in a poor sounding final product; shows us easily that Hauptwerk is far superior!

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:42 am
by profeluisegarcia
adri wrote: Hauptwerk is far superior!

No doubt about it. :D

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:18 am
by murph
I wonder how many notes of the swell tremulant were off when they were sampled? All 61?

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:42 pm
by engrssc

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:19 pm
by engrssc
Was curious as to what was or is going to happen to that sample set. Can't imagine anyone doing all that work for just one's own personal "pleasure". So I wrote to Derek. See what he says.

BTW, my guess would be, as well as that organ sampling was done, it would sound great using Hauptwerk. As good as Hauptwerk is, it can't make a poor sample set sound good. :roll: So it's a combination of HW and a well done sample set. :) As well there's other factors such as the computer, the audio system, etc, etc, etc. :wink:

Then, too, every major digital organ these days is advertised as using digital samples. along with hybrids.

Rgds,
Ed

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:51 pm
by Grant_Youngman
There were a lot of things in this sampling demo that were unclear. I didn't find it particularly satisfying.

Where were the mics (other than there were a lot of them)? And how would those recording channels fit in to a surround or variable perspective environment at all (reverb seemed to be artificially added in the demo?). Looping (if any) didn't make it into any of the screen shots or discussion, nor was it clear in the demos. It also appeared there was only one release tail sampled for each pipe — and only one sample per pipe period. Also the denoising algorithm substantially changed the sound of the pipes in that part of the demo (of course that may happen in samples being worked over for HW as well).

I'm also guessing that whatever system was being used to create the "instrument" was not suitable for real-time playing. And the process of actually building and voicing the final instrument to reflect the sound of the original organ was left out altogether, other than it being an amalgam of recordings of normalized samples.

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:52 am
by engrssc
Looking at it from those prospective points, Grant, I may need to revise my evaluation. I wasn't esp thrilled at the demo either. Likewise adding orchestral voices. Could be Hauptwerk has "spoiled" us.

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:04 pm
by sjkartchner
Keep in mind that this sample set is designed for a different target audience (multi-track producers) than what Hauptwerk is typically used for. As a Kontakt sample set, this isn't all that bad, and is eminently usable, especially when combined with other sample sets for multitrack recordings.

Our ears have become accustomed to the vastly superior-sounding realism afforded by multiple samples and releases per note that we enjoy with Hauptwerk. However, as we all know, that requires a ton of memory and so is not as useful/usable in the multitrack recording arena.

What this video amply demonstrates is the incredible amount of time, effort and expertise needed to produce organ sample sets. Figure multiples of the time and effort devoted to this sample set to those typically produced by Sonus Paradisi, for instance, and it makes the cost of these high-quality Hauptwerk sets appear incredibly reasonable by comparison.

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:18 pm
by sjkartchner
p.s. Kontakt is used for real-time playing of supported sample sets, and does a pretty good job of it. For those complaining that this video is somehow incomplete, it would require a video at least three to four times in length to even begin to scratch the surface of all that is involved in producing a Hauptwerk sample set. Heck, just the process of looping the multiple samples per pipe alone could be an hour-long video. Let's not be too snobbish about this but appreciate the video for what it is.

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:16 pm
by profeluisegarcia
sjkartchner wrote:
What this video amply demonstrates is ...


Thanks Stan for your post and the next one. This was what I had in mind when posting this video (but I did not have the right sentences): To really understand ("verstehen" in German) the great effort and contribution of the wonderful people who sample HW organs for us. When before 21 Century we even thought about having this musical resource in our homes?

Luis

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:26 am
by csw900
Having viewed the video I would say that these samples were over processed so much so that almost all of the character of the real instrument was removed.

Whoever heard of a real organ where all of the notes were exactly the same volume and all exactly in tune?

If the noise was really there then why cancel it?

How did they combine the output from the multiple microphones? Clearly they were adding adjustable artificial reverberation so why go to all the trouble of measuring the auditorium.

csw900

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:34 am
by sjkartchner
csw900 wrote:If the noise was really there then why cancel it?

How did they combine the output from the multiple microphones? Clearly they were adding adjustable artificial reverberation so why go to all the trouble of measuring the auditorium.

csw900


If you don't cancel the noise, it becomes cumulative with each note played together. All sample set producers use some sort of noise removal software.

Recording (measuring) the space permits the use of customized impulses for convolution reverb.

Re: How an organ is sampled?

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:46 am
by sjkartchner
Rather than be critical of the video, and of the sample set that has been produced for a far different target audience, wouldn't it be more productive to appreciate what the video shows us about the sampling process, and more clearly understand that producing a fine Hauptwerk set is a daunting task?