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I lost my trust in MDA

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gerrit

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I lost my trust in MDA

PostThu Dec 12, 2019 5:23 am

I have not decided yet whether I will upgrade to HW5 or not. Probably not.

One practical but important reason not to do it, is the fact that in HW5 I can no longer load any sets in 14 bit. I need that option to cramp some of my most used sets into my 8 Gb. So, the choice for me would be, staying with 4, or accepting I can no longer use some of my sets, or buy a new PC etc. as well, which I cannot justify very well as long as my current PC lives.

Yet, I might have just decided to buy HWV 5 anyway, to profit from the introduction deal, and then, if I could not use it satisfactorily now, install and use it later, when I might have the time and money to buy and install a new PC. In fact, this was my plan. But I have another reason not to do so. I lost my trust in MDA. I lost my goodwill towards MDA. I feel angry about MDA.

The most important reasons for this are these:

- Before I would purchase HW5, I would at least want to test whether it works on my own setup and whether it gives me enough value. I cannot do this within 6 days, given the complex nature of this procedure, and especially not in this time of the year, where I need my organ too much for practice, to take any risk with it. And since I am not alone in this, far from it, offering us a discount that is only valid for 6 days, therefore is showing very little consideration for us as customers. Saying we can buy now and install and test later, is even worse. It's an insult, because it's coercing us into buying something blindsighted.

- Another insult is the misleading language in the coupon email. Saving $400? Yes, I too thought for a moment I, as a customer of many years, would have to pay the full $599 after 12/16, which made me very angry. But, when I discovered this was not the case, I was still angry about the misleading wording. And saying this was true and necessary because the shop can not handle the purchase otherwise then for ordering the full package for a discount, that seems ridiculous at best. How will an upgrade order then be handled after 12/16? Do we get another coupon code then for the standard upgrade price? At the very least, this way of putting things is so inconsiderate towards the customer, so technique and seller centered, it puts me off greatly.

- MDA will no longer support the HASP dongle after 3/31/2020. Which means anyone who still uses HW4 is seriously hindered. I agree it's reasonable that new sets will only be for HW5. And given the fact that the HASP dongle is no longer secure, I think it's also reasonable that older encrypted sets will now only be sold in HW5 format. But I think it's unreasonable that HW4 owners can no longer sell the sets they own. In fact, it's against the law, at least in the EU. Customers have the legal right to sell any purchased software with a perpetual license. The producer is legally forbidden to hinder this. A dongle is such a hindrance, which means that in case a producer chooses to use such a dongle, he is legally obliged to facilitate license transfers from one dongle to another for as long as these licenses are valid. Perpetually, that is. Personally I have never sold or bought any set this way, and probably never will, but seeing MDA trumping this right, makes me feel very insecure about any other rights or freedoms MDA might take away in the future.

- Which brings me to subscription. I will never buy a subscription. I don't want to give my organ installation in ransom to MDA. But seeing the Free version is gone and the Lite version is already subscription only and having seen other software companies removing the perpetual option some time after introducing subscription, I fear MDA will also remove the perpetual option for the Advanced version with HW 6 or 7. If this happens, I am out for good. MDA has shown already now, they cannot be trusted with the power they have over us as customers. It will be just too much risk to give them any more. And what if they will just disappear for whatever reason?

Yet, despite all of this, I very much like HW and I very much would like to have HW5 someday. I expect it to be a great product. So maybe, I will still buy. I do not need any of the new features, but the existing features will indeed be even better than they were, I expect. And even if this were not so, I might do it just for the security I will get from owning it, just in case HW6 might arrive sooner than expected and as subscription only. If that would happen, I would be very glad if I would own HW5, to be able enjoy HW some more years after my current PC with HW4 will have died. But if I buy, I will buy with very mixed feelings, because I feel forced to do it instead of doing it gladly out of free will.

I sincerely hope MDA will consider these points and do anything they can to change things for the better, to regain the great trust I and others once had in them.
Gerrit Veldman

Free sheet music available at my website.
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Purator

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostThu Dec 12, 2019 5:38 am

gerrit wrote:One practical but important reason not to do it, is the fact that in HW5 I can no longer load any sets in 14 bit.

I either have completely missed that or it just was not mentioned before - but thank you very much for that warning!

Kind Regards,
Rico
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sonar11

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostThu Dec 12, 2019 9:22 am

Thank you Gerrit, for putting it into words so eloquently. You said it much better than I ever could, and nailed it 100%.
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aah

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostSat Dec 12, 2020 8:01 am

I'm reading this a year later, but I agree completely. Hauptwerk customers have become victims of extortion practices.
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DomD

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostSun Dec 13, 2020 7:15 am

gerrit wrote:I have not decided yet whether I will upgrade to HW5 or not. Probably not.

One practical but important reason not to do it, is the fact that in HW5 I can no longer load any sets in 14 bit. I need that option to cramp some of my most used sets into my 8 Gb. So, the choice for me would be, staying with 4, or accepting I can no longer use some of my sets, or buy a new PC etc. as well, which I cannot justify very well as long as my current PC lives.

Yet, I might have just decided to buy HWV 5 anyway, to profit from the introduction deal, and then, if I could not use it satisfactorily now, install and use it later, when I might have the time and money to buy and install a new PC. In fact, this was my plan. But I have another reason not to do so. I lost my trust in MDA. I lost my goodwill towards MDA. I feel angry about MDA.

The most important reasons for this are these:

- Before I would purchase HW5, I would at least want to test whether it works on my own setup and whether it gives me enough value. I cannot do this within 6 days, given the complex nature of this procedure, and especially not in this time of the year, where I need my organ too much for practice, to take any risk with it. And since I am not alone in this, far from it, offering us a discount that is only valid for 6 days, therefore is showing very little consideration for us as customers. Saying we can buy now and install and test later, is even worse. It's an insult, because it's coercing us into buying something blindsighted.

- Another insult is the misleading language in the coupon email. Saving $400? Yes, I too thought for a moment I, as a customer of many years, would have to pay the full $599 after 12/16, which made me very angry. But, when I discovered this was not the case, I was still angry about the misleading wording. And saying this was true and necessary because the shop can not handle the purchase otherwise then for ordering the full package for a discount, that seems ridiculous at best. How will an upgrade order then be handled after 12/16? Do we get another coupon code then for the standard upgrade price? At the very least, this way of putting things is so inconsiderate towards the customer, so technique and seller centered, it puts me off greatly.

- MDA will no longer support the HASP dongle after 3/31/2020. Which means anyone who still uses HW4 is seriously hindered. I agree it's reasonable that new sets will only be for HW5. And given the fact that the HASP dongle is no longer secure, I think it's also reasonable that older encrypted sets will now only be sold in HW5 format. But I think it's unreasonable that HW4 owners can no longer sell the sets they own. In fact, it's against the law, at least in the EU. Customers have the legal right to sell any purchased software with a perpetual license. The producer is legally forbidden to hinder this. A dongle is such a hindrance, which means that in case a producer chooses to use such a dongle, he is legally obliged to facilitate license transfers from one dongle to another for as long as these licenses are valid. Perpetually, that is. Personally I have never sold or bought any set this way, and probably never will, but seeing MDA trumping this right, makes me feel very insecure about any other rights or freedoms MDA might take away in the future.

- Which brings me to subscription. I will never buy a subscription. I don't want to give my organ installation in ransom to MDA. But seeing the Free version is gone and the Lite version is already subscription only and having seen other software companies removing the perpetual option some time after introducing subscription, I fear MDA will also remove the perpetual option for the Advanced version with HW 6 or 7. If this happens, I am out for good. MDA has shown already now, they cannot be trusted with the power they have over us as customers. It will be just too much risk to give them any more. And what if they will just disappear for whatever reason?

Yet, despite all of this, I very much like HW and I very much would like to have HW5 someday. I expect it to be a great product. So maybe, I will still buy. I do not need any of the new features, but the existing features will indeed be even better than they were, I expect. And even if this were not so, I might do it just for the security I will get from owning it, just in case HW6 might arrive sooner than expected and as subscription only. If that would happen, I would be very glad if I would own HW5, to be able enjoy HW some more years after my current PC with HW4 will have died. But if I buy, I will buy with very mixed feelings, because I feel forced to do it instead of doing it gladly out of free will.

I sincerely hope MDA will consider these points and do anything they can to change things for the better, to regain the great trust I and others once had in them.


All is said. I use both HW4 and HW6.. but after puchasing this last version I will no more purchase any upgrades. It's enough. I understand that HW4 users will not upgrade.... it's a reality that MDA doesn't want to understand and oblige customers to purchase next version. MDA loses customers..... Piotr Grabovski understand the situation.... he proposes ODF for GO.
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SMann

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostSun Dec 13, 2020 3:37 pm

Good grief !

I can't believe this keeps getting dredged up over and over. MDA isn't extorting anyone. No one is twisting arms and forcing users to upgrade. The last time I checked there is no version of Hauptwerk which just stops working if you don’t fork over money. If what you have works for you then by all means keep it. There seems to be a pervasive and pernicious belief these days that software should be free or nearly so. I have news: FREE doesn’t put food on people’s tables. FREE doesn’t incentivize developers to improve their products. Insufficient income drives companies, and especially small companies like MDA, out of business. I for one would be horrified to see that happen. Hauptwerk is top tier, professional grade software and its developers deserve to be fairly compensated. In my opinion it is also reasonably priced. Have any of you looked at the cost of professional audio software recently? There is absolutely nothing available that even remotely compares to it. To equate it with something like GO which is basically a glorified hobby project is laughable.
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IanPounder

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostMon Dec 14, 2020 5:01 am

Well said, SMann!
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hans0166

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostMon Dec 14, 2020 7:11 am

SMann wrote:Hauptwerk is top tier, professional grade software .


and this is going to kill the use and interest for non professioal hobbyists that made the brand what it is.
Next to the proffesional use you need a second userbase for keeping costs manageble or the use will get extremely expensive to keep alive.
Not sure you noticed.. but this also shows at the forums, neary nobbody except some dyhards still post there and and promotions for online concerts ( nothing wrong with that last!) where are all amateurs gone that made Crumhorn and MDA bigger?... fleed to amateur-userfriendlier forums allover the world.

I said it earlier, it's developing to a niche product only usable for technical and program geeks.
I have V5, playable and good enough for me, but can't use 98% of the features because i simple dont understand it. If that's keeps going with next upgrades iwon't upgrade anymore.. what's the use to pay for something that adds even more confusement?

If MDA wants to keep all of them, They have to make use more accessble, and not killing previous versions in a status quo ( it's not possible to get new instruments on V4, and later most likely no V5's as soon V7 comes next year.

And as you are totally allowed to defend MDA, it's also totally allowed to express feelings and thoughts for the ones that feel a little less love for latest developments.
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mdyde

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostMon Dec 14, 2020 9:05 am

Hello Hans,

hans0166 wrote: ( it's not possible to get new instruments on V4, and later most likely no V5's as soon V7 comes next year.


Just to clarify: the current version of Hauptwerk (v6) is still fully backwardly compatible with non-encrypted sample sets from all previous Hauptwerk versions (v1-v5). It is specifically only v2-v4 encrypted sample sets that v5/v6 can't load, and v2-v4 HASP dongle-licensed sample sets that can no longer be sold, due to the change of licensing system from the v2-v4 HASP dongle to the v5+ iLok system. (The licensing system was changed due to the HASP-based system having been cracked and widely exploited illegally.)

There are no plans to change the licensing system again in the foreseeable future, so there's no reason that sample set producers can't keep making/selling Hauptwerk v5-format sample sets in the foreseeable future as long as they wish. (There's also no reason that sample set producers can't keep making/selling Hauptwerk v1-v4 format sample sets that don't use the v2-v4 HASP dongle system for licensing.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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sonar11

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostMon Dec 14, 2020 2:47 pm

mdyde wrote:Hello Hans,

hans0166 wrote: ( it's not possible to get new instruments on V4, and later most likely no V5's as soon V7 comes next year.


Just to clarify: the current version of Hauptwerk (v6) is still fully backwardly compatible with non-encrypted sample sets from all previous Hauptwerk versions (v1-v5). It is specifically only v2-v4 encrypted sample sets that v5/v6 can't load, and v2-v4 HASP dongle-licensed sample sets that can no longer be sold, due to the change of licensing system from the v2-v4 HASP dongle to the v5+ iLok system. (The licensing system was changed due to the HASP-based system having been cracked and widely exploited illegally.)

There are no plans to change the licensing system again in the foreseeable future, so there's no reason that sample set producers can't keep making/selling Hauptwerk v5-format sample sets in the foreseeable future as long as they wish. (There's also no reason that sample set producers can't keep making/selling Hauptwerk v1-v4 format sample sets that don't use the v2-v4 HASP dongle system for licensing.)


Martin, I'm trying to say this as respectfully as I can; but quite frankly, the cracked HW4 system is not my problem. It's a bug/flaw in your software, right? But yet it is HW4 users who are paying for this mistake.

Why are HW4 users being denied the full use of their software? Purchasing and loading used HW4 samples is a feature that used to work, but is being actively prohibited by MDA. We're not demanding new features, we just find it completely immoral to retroactively reduce the features we bought and paid for.

Again, I do understand why you needed to upgrade to a new license model. I'm not asking to load HW5 samples into HW4. But you guys will never have my trust or respect for the action you took here. It was not my mistake, I shoudn't have to pay the price.

And thinking about it logically; you are only preventing legal customers from using HW4. Illegal customers couldn't care less because they will run the cracked stuff. So what exactly are you accomplishing here, other than some extremely sketch and immoral behaviour? It's not even in legal in my country, though I do not have the funds to challenge MDA.

I expected a lot more from a company that is so closely tied to "church", whatever that might be; there is nothing "churchy" about this behaviour.
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Grant_Youngman

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostMon Dec 14, 2020 3:15 pm

sonar11 wrote:Martin, I'm trying to say this as respectfully as I can; but quite frankly, the cracked HW4 system is not my problem. It's a bug/flaw in your software, right? But yet it is HW4 users who are paying for this mistake.



The Thales' HASP protection software was cracked. It is not HW software that was cracked. But as a result, MDA software and sample set developer IP can be stolen — what would YOU do if your hard work could be stolen, copied, and sold for a profit by some crook in Russia?

The insults, if not plain old smears, being tossed around here have gone well beyond the pale …
Grant
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josq

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostMon Dec 14, 2020 3:36 pm

sonar11 wrote:Purchasing and loading used HW4 samples is a feature that used to work, but is being actively prohibited by MDA.


There are 5 or 6 parties involved:
* You, the potential buyer of (used) protected sample sets, cannot buy additional protected sample sets, when sticking to HW4. You still have the option to buy unprotected sample sets or to switch to HW5/6 (yes that will cost you some money, but if you want to buy something you have to spend money anyway)
* Similarly, sellers have the option to sell (HW4-compatible) unprotected samplesets or to make protected sample sets available in HW5/6
* The provider of HASP dongles, a dated technology with broken protection. Not a good party to rely on anymore
* PACE and their iLok technology. I don't like the fees, but at least the technology leaves me in charge when I want to buy/sell used sample sets. And they have proper backup and insurance
* MDA, who decided to switch from HASP dongles to iLoks for HW5, which, apparently, in the above context has been a highly immoral act..
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Jan Loosman

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostMon Dec 14, 2020 3:49 pm

This discusion has run its course long time ago.
Please stop! Or buy yourself a nice Johannus organ.

Jan
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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostMon Dec 14, 2020 5:53 pm

This is a topic that is certainly not fun for anyone. I also prefer to read topics that improve my knowledge of Hauptwerk.

There are people who care about the communication policy of MDA. It is in everyone's interest that the investments in Hauptwerk and sample sets are maintained for a long time. Many have spent thousands of Euros/Dollars and some of them had to save for a very long time. And that should be taken seriously.

It would be an advantage for us, if there is e.g. a roadmap, where you can see, where the journey goes. Which update cycles, which licenses for new and existing users, which customer requests there are, which customer requests will be implemented in the next version. Which version is compatible with another version.

You can see from the questions in the forum that many are wandering around and don't know what the current status is. Not everyone has enough time to read every post here every day, so you don't miss anything.

There is no central place where this information can be retrieved. I have HW VI, but what has changed now where, I may see sometime by chance. The release notes are of no use to me if I might not understand them at some point.

And I have not yet discovered a statement from the management on this subject. No answer can also be interpreted as "I don't care".

The topic is not easy when you as a company have to listen to such accusations in your forum. But doing nothing is not a solution (or a bad solution).

Here is an example of a very simple roadmap, but one that already holds some information. I can call it up every week and know what is being worked on and when to expect the next release. Now that would be a positive starting point.

I would like to see (it is Christmas) better communication between MDA and its customers.

In HW some things can be improved and I also hope for 2021 that the nice statement "Your wishlist just go shorter" comes true again.
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sonar11

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Re: I lost my trust in MDA

PostTue Dec 15, 2020 12:43 pm

Grant_Youngman wrote:
sonar11 wrote:Martin, I'm trying to say this as respectfully as I can; but quite frankly, the cracked HW4 system is not my problem. It's a bug/flaw in your software, right? But yet it is HW4 users who are paying for this mistake.



The Thales' HASP protection software was cracked. It is not HW software that was cracked. But as a result, MDA software and sample set developer IP can be stolen — what would YOU do if your hard work could be stolen, copied, and sold for a profit by some crook in Russia?

The insults, if not plain old smears, being tossed around here have gone well beyond the pale …


No insults, just pure plain facts.

The customer did not ask for the Hasp, it was forced on us. OK, fine. Now it gets cracked, that's not my problem. I'm being very blunt, but that is the fact. MDA has no legal right to retroactively disable my features in the software I bought and paid for completely, just because either their software or the software/hardware they purchased from a third party has a flaw.

What would I do? I would do what MDA did (find a new encryption technology for the next release), but leave ver 4 alone.

Again, denying legal HW 4 users from purchasing used sets and importing them only hinders legal users. Legal users are being prevented from doing the legal thing by telling MDA "hey I bought this set, can you license it for me". Instead, they are pushed more into the dark web right into ilegal terroritory. I have not done this, and I do not encourage it, but you know it is going to happen as a result of this.

MDA doesn't care though, because they hate used sales period. It's been their policy from day one: no sales allowed on this forum, don't talk about it, don't mention it, locked and removed threads/posts etc. They only want new sales, and this is the result; HW4 users are legaly prevented from using features they bought and paid for.
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