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New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

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cshustak

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostFri Feb 28, 2020 4:45 pm

Has anyone any experience with the keyboards from Organ Supply.Com?

http://www.organsupply.com/
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CWEB

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostFri Feb 28, 2020 6:51 pm

This is a slightly tangential point, but....

Getting hung up on your potential system 'feeling like a real organ' may not be as productive as you might expect.

1. Real organs vary tremendously. An historic mechanical action, a modern mechanical action, a 19th century pneumatic action and an electro-pneumatic action will all feel completely different. It's quite likely you will want virtual representations of all of these on a single hauptwerk installation, and clearly you can't even attempt to simulate the feel of each of them when they are so different.

2. Hauptwerk isn't a 'real' organ. Barring a ludicrous amount of effort and expense it won't feel like one. But it can be very satisfying nonetheless.

3. I'm personally unconvinced by any 'tracker touch' keyboards I've encountered. I've played new tracker actions, old tracker actions, pneumatic actions etc etc, and IMO the only type of real organ mechanism that can be properly simulated by electronic keyboards is an electric/electro-pneumatic one.... Which isn't really a simulation at all because Hauptwerk is indeed inherently electronic, and that's OK.

4. You don't play an organ with your fingers, you play it with your ears. Even more so with Hauptwerk.

I use modified Beringer consumer grade keyboards and I'm quite happy with them. Truth be told they're preferable to many 'real organ' keyboards. They are not the last word in quality, of course. But it depends how much money you have and how worthwhile you think it is to spend more.

If money was no object I would do an initial set up with cheap keyboards, then look to source keyboards from suppliers to the pipe organ trade. If you want to be slightly more prudent it comes down to try before you buy, and choose what you're happy with.

One more tip - don't buy a cheap pedal board. Cheap keyboards at least benefit from economies of scale in production, but pedal boards...... You need a decent one - a second hand one off a real organ can be a good choice, or be willing to pay for a good new one.
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engrssc

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostFri Feb 28, 2020 7:33 pm

jcrowley wrote:I purchased 3 Samson keyboards that I use in my console


Which model?

Rgds,
Ed
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Organorak

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostSun Mar 01, 2020 4:24 pm

Need a budget in mind to really advise.

If money truly is no object then go for a supplier to pipe organs such as Laukhuff or Organ Supply Industries. You could even specify mammoth ivory or other exotic finishes though expect thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars per keyboard for such luxuries.

If money is tight then go round as many electronic keyboard shops as possible and try Samson, Behringer, Roland etc and find something that feels acceptable and figure out a way of removing the keys from the portable keyboard.

If you are somewhere inbetween and want new keyboards then Fatars are probably right for you - however there are different grads of Fatar. The more basic ones are TP6 and TP8 (though the latter offers the possibility of wooden faced keys). They are quite short to the pivot point so will feel less realistic. The better ones have a longer distance behind the piston rails to the pivot and the rear section is made of metal. They can be faced in plastic (TP60) or faced in light or dark wood with a wood core (TP62/63/64). I expect most Hauptwerkians who have Fatars use the TP60, it is quite widely available. I have them myself and must say that whilst they are clearly plastic keys, they feel a jolly sight more "realistic" than many keyboards I've played even on expensive digital organs from well known companies.

If you are particularly fond of DIY projects then look for a stack of keyboards from a redundant pipe or electronic with a touch that suits you and MIDIfy them youself using the kits recommended on these fora.

The only thing I'd add to other comments is not to be surprised at how expensive piston rails can be - having made my own they were the hardest and most frustrating part of my entire organ build and can see why people buy ready made ones and why the ready made ones may look like they cost a lot!
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engrssc

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostSun Mar 01, 2020 4:57 pm

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14897&p=112907&hilit=piston+rails#p110927

There are hardwood trim strips from such as Menards or Home Depot that lend them selves to piston rails using a proper sized Forstner bit to drill the hole.

Rgds,
Ed
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kunzuilh

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostTue Mar 03, 2020 1:06 am

In addition to everything that has already been said, when I bought my console I was also very worried about simulating the mechanical action of the real organs that I usually play as well as possible. After much searching I decided on the Schwindler keyboards from Luca Paneti (Milan) that have excellent value for money. They are made of wood and have a system of two magnets that you can adjust to simulate greater or lesser initial resistance and greater or lesser return force. I am happy with them (much more than with the Fatar), but I have not tried other options such as UHT or Laukuff.

Some photos (I don't know how to make the photos show, the tag [img] doesn't work...):

http://www.mediafire.com/view/box5q4row ... -33-15.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/e6cdq6drq ... -33-17.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/30hcy00nc ... -33-19.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/rtsgy8us6 ... -33-21.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/ftlvp76oq ... -33-24.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/3t0y576n3 ... -33-25.jpg
http://www.mediafire.com/view/8cqxeqm7a ... -33-26.jpg
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ppytprs

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostTue Mar 03, 2020 8:13 am

How much do those cost?
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JulianMoney-Kyrle

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostTue Mar 03, 2020 10:46 am

That is a very important point. Unless your budget is huge you will have to make decisions on how you want to spend it depending on your priorities. The main areas are:

Console (keyboards, pedalboard, swell pedals, pistons, stop controls etc.)
Computer (the amount of RAM can limit your choice of sample sets, the processor speed and capabilities can affect the realism, the type of storage - SSD or HDD - can affect how much time you spend waiting for an organ to load, and the amount of storage, if you end up with a lot of samples)
Sound system (number and type of loudspeakers, subwoofer, audio interface, number of output channnels)
Sample sets (some are free, some are expensive and some are budget; the suppliers have their own reasons for setting the prices that they do, but to some extent you get what you pay for in terms of quality and number of stops. Do you just want to play a single type of organ, or do you want access to virtual instruments of different types for playing different composers?)

Of course all of these are upgradable in stages, though it is easier if you get the console right earlier on. However, if you spend all your money on the best possible keyboards then you might not have enough left to optimise the sound, or even to buy sampled organs to play.

Julian
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kunzuilh

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostTue Mar 03, 2020 1:30 pm

ppytprs wrote:How much do those cost?


Here all the info: http://fabiomancini.altervista.org/haup ... onsole.htm

Under "Preventivo online" you can see the prices. For me the sound was important, but more important was the pulsation. It depends on the priorities of each one.
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ostrovitch

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Re: New user evauating. How real do keyboards feel?

PostMon Mar 09, 2020 10:53 am

kunzuilh wrote:
ppytprs wrote:How much do those cost?


Here all the info: http://fabiomancini.altervista.org/haup ... onsole.htm

Under "Preventivo online" you can see the prices. For me the sound was important, but more important was the pulsation. It depends on the priorities of each one.


Yes, I use this one and I'm very satisfied, and prices are corrects.
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