Viscount Organs

A company out of Italy makes very nice digital organs (gasp!)
They are wonderful, very affordable, and compatible with Hauptwerk.
I am purchasing their 1 manual 22 stop organ. In addition to the 22 tabbed stops, it includes harpsichord, chimes, strings, choir, and celesta.

Their US distrubitor is Excelsior Music www.excelsiormusic.com

Mikey

Galanti from Italy distributes organ throughout the world under different names. In Holland they are called Domus.

I am afraid I will have to differ with your opinion. I have played and listened to their organs for the past 20 years and am of the opinion that they are absolutely horrible. Of all of the "classical" digital organs (Makin, Johannus, Content, Eminent, Allen, Rodgers, etc) I have heard, I would have to say they are the worst. But of course you are free to have a totally different opinion.

Galanti from Italy distributes organ throughout the world under different names. In Holland they are called Domus.

I am afraid I will have to differ with your opinion. I have played and listened to their organs for the past 20 years and am of the opinion that they are absolutely horrible. Of all of the "classical" digital organs (Makin, Johannus, Content, Eminent, Allen, Rodgers, etc) I have heard, I would have to say they are the worst. But of course you are free to have a totally different opinion.

My brother has a 3-manual Johannus, and I think it's absolutely terrible. I lvoe him, exchange a greta deal of info and music bakc and forth, but we disagree about his organ. What a dead, uninspiring sound. Yuk! When I go to visit him, I actually have no desire at all to play it, and last time I was there I only did, because my old dad who ws visiting insisted, so I played something short on it, so that I could quickly get away from it again. In American I once went to practice in a church for an organist opening, when I discovered to my horror that they had a large 4-manual, 100+ stop Allen, which made a lot of noise, and had all the stops, bells and whistles but left me feeling cold as well. No desire to ever go back there, even if it is only 5 minutes from home.

My message to Mikey is this: get a good MIDI keyboard or two with no sounds built in, and only use Hauptwerk. Your initial excitement about a digital imitation/emulation will come to a dead stop pretty soon after you use Hauptwerk sample sets, and then you will regret having wasted all that extra money on it.

Having worked for Viscount many years ago and tried dismally to get them to "do things right" they were, are and will remain a lost cause. That equally applies to most of the others mentioned above most of whom I know well and have had dealings with in one way or another on a professional level. The one and only builder who was ever even half successful (and it must be considered that he was only working in analogue), was Henk Heyligers of Ermelo. There are also one or two other small un-named builders who also approached this "spitzenklasse" and were to some extent or not, successful as well.

ALL the builders above without exception, fail to even come close to anything that can be considered that approaching what HW can do.

To give you some idea of how unwilling Viscount for instance are to take advice: They produced a 5 manual for Franfurt Messe some years ago. they asked me for the correct dimensions for the console measurements which I gave them and then proceeded to build the instrument. When I arrived at Frankfurt they showed me this "wonderful" instrument and not ONE of the recommendations had been instigated which resulted in an instrument which was totally unplayable since the player fell off the bench if he tried playing the 4th or 5th manual. The sound of it equally was just as appalling.

Viscount were offered my Willis and other samples some years ago for FREE and turned them down on account of the fact that it would be too much work to make them usable in their organs.

Ahlborn / Galanti on the other hand did actually use some of my samples -albeit with the limitations of their systems at the time - and were grateful for them. At least Dieter Beisbarth and the others in that company were striving after something that was worthwhile and authentic. They may not have agreed with the ideals of the English organ sound but they did at least try.

Let's put it this way, any company (Viscount) that uses sample recordings from an Allen to create some of its stops and thinks it can get away with it really cannot be taken seriously as a company striving to produce authentic pipe sound. This isn't sour grapes since for what they do, they do well and providing one is not expecting anything truly pipelike, they produce a valid product that has it's place amongst the un-discerning and pecuniarly disadvantaged purchasers of their products.

Having said that, they are far more successful selling and making what they make and are actually making more money out of it than any of us could ever hope to do, so in the end, who has got it right ???? Who are the total idiots in this peculiar world who seek to find the ultimate counterfeit ??? US I'm afraid !

But at least I can sleep at night with a clear conscience knowing that whatever I and my colleagues do is aimed at achieving the best possible result that can be hoped for in the circumstances.

It was ever thus.................

From the above mentioned Viscount website:

Each Note of each stop has been digitally sampled from "world class" pipe organs and are faithfully reproduced at an amazing resolution "total bit rate" of 1,344,000 per second.

All right, so CD quality is 44.1KHz, 16 bit, stereo, which comes to

44100*16*2=1,411,200 bits per second.

And this is not the ultimate, this is the smallest resolution you can ever get. The latest organs come in 48KHz, 24 bit, stereo (2,304,000 bps). That's only one tiny little difference.

How old are the instruments you are talking about? Technology has changed across the board of electric/digital organ builders--With more powerful processors and better sampling processes, digital reverb, etc. It is difficult to near impossible to distinguish a digitial organ from the real thing, well as long as you do not use General MIDI sounds for anything--they still have a very long way to go...They need to use whatever sound synth/samples that Finale 2007 uses--I can't tell you how many people I've fooled into thinking they were listening to a real recording.

One of the biggest factor in less expensive digital organs is the room it is built in--they depend on great acoustics to sound decent. With better digital reverb, this is no longer a problem.

But again, I'm American, and used to horrible pipe organs--we in the US seem to only build horrible organs, with very few exceptions. Many of the organs that did have time and effort go into were the Theatre Organs--argh!!! The horror of all the unification and tremulant.

I think every american pipe organ I have played has been cursed by bad voicing, over unification, and general lack of useful foundation, solo and mutation stops(what's left one might ask--not much, that's for sure!)--so even a bad digital to you, sound amazing to many americans--and even to some Classically trained, professional organist, encluding me.

I will continue to be pleased with NEW Rodgers, Allen, Viscount, and Ahlborg-Galanti, etc. organs, until the USA suddenly encounters a rebirth of Glorious European organ building.

I still dabble with HW, and hopefully will have A-G install MIDI on our churches outdated pipe organ so I can fully utilise HW for worship.

Thanks for all of your feedback!!!

Mikey

I will continue to be pleased with NEW Rodgers, Allen, Viscount, and Ahlborg-Galanti, etc. organs, until the USA suddenly encounters a rebirth of Glorious European organ building.Mikey

This rebirth has been in full swing already, and the work of Fisk, Brombaugh, Taylor & Boody, Richards and Fowkes, Noack, to name a just a few, as well as the pioneering work done here by Von Beckerath and Flentrop, are doing their darnest best to present America with European styled and inspired organs in the e.g. the style of old Dutch organs, North-German baroque organs, Schnitger, Silbermann, French classical, Italian pre-1800, Cavaille-Coll, Middle/South German, etc.

This revolution is taking place especially in universities, in their chapels and concert halls, but also in civic concert halls, as well as in a growing number of churches, Catholic and Protestant alike.

I still stand by my earlier comment that once you discover Hauptwerk, you will find any digital imitation "junk", as I agree with you that American organs are indeed horrible, because they are assemblies of parts brought from different suppliers and just put together to function somewhere, without any thought about unity, artistic integrity. But the days of several of those organ makers is numbered. Look at Austin: they were almost broke and are just staying alive. And Moeller is long since gone. A new day is dawning here, but apparently it takes a long time here for the sun to rise, alas.

What I am going to say is not meant as a personal criticism, but as a thought to ponder: if we can be satisfied with mediocrity, because it is so hard to get something good, how can we ever grow to where we really like to be?

We must get away from this false notion that quantity is everything. Quality must come first. I once wrote an article for the American Diapason organ magazine "In Praise of the single manual organ", as it would for many churches be a better and sufficient solution than a compromised 2-manual, costing the same or more, with a totally compromised specification (far less stops) or with all the electric bells and whistles knobs that really mean nothing where making really good music is concerned.

I am not saying that from now on we all should go single manual, but you get my point that quality must always remain the first priority, not bells and whistles, not compromised quantity because you are on a budget.

I never forget as guest organist somewhere the bad electronic Allen (pre-digital) in the more reverberant choir room that actually sounded a lot better than the horrible Moeller in the dry sounding church. Glad I had to play there only once!

So I understand where you are comign from, but my story, although very funny in a way, is also a very tragic commentary about our assembly line industrialized society.

It's therefore always a joy for me to go and visit Taylor & Boody's workshop, about a 3-1/2 drive from my home. And yes, they can make organs like that in America! I love to see some of their organs sampled!

Thus, see e.g. http://www.taylorandboody.com/

http://www.richardsfowkes.com/

http://www.cbfisk.com/

etc.

Why all this "American Organ" bashing? I feel hook-Hastings, Roosevelt, Hutchings, Skinner, and Austin all built some truly wonderful sounding organs. Yes they did use unification but this was a blessing in disguise when an organ was too small. I would like to challenge you to go out and actually "hear" some of these instruments before making any more comments.

Why all this "American Organ" bashing? I feel hook-Hastings, Roosevelt, Hutchings, Skinner, and Austin all built some truly wonderful sounding organs. Yes they did use unification but this was a blessing in disguise when an organ was too small. I would like to challenge you to go out and actually "hear" some of these instruments before making any more comments.

Oops, I should have said: Some American organs built in the 20th century. I was organist on an 1855 American-built Stevens & Jewitt which was wonderful, and also on an 1893 Hook & Hastings 3-man. tracker, which was the nicest old tracker in town. I was also organist at the Shrine of the Imm. Conception in Washington DC, which has two large Moellers, and the large one in the back just wasn't done right (but has been totally revamped since), while the one in front was much better.

Yes, I did go out and played many organs, and I think my comment is well qualified. As substitute organist when I first came to DC, having no steady organist job yet, I played in many churches and was confronted with many uninspiring organs indeed. These organs were assembled, not carefully planned and built around a truly unifying musical concept.

Actually, many organists friends agree with me that 20th century American organ building is a very mixed bag, and leaves much to be desired. My entire point has been that real pipe organs ought to sound much better than electronic/digital instruments, but that this is not always the case.

Currently, I play an Austin, but I can't say it's great. It's OK; but it doesn't draw the inspirational fires out of me either. But it helps to pay the bills, as the church treats me well. I guess we can't always have the cake and eat it too? Yet, this is what I keep hoping for.

Sorry didn't mean to get get so serious and I now see your point. HW is still SO much better than most of the little wicks, reuter, pilcher things from the 40's and 50's and also most of the electronic organs out there. I would like to see more combo pipe/HW organs in the future. HW just simply beats the pants off the competition!

I see where you all are coming from--I live in Virginia, which has very few examples of nice pipe organs. Nearly every church organ in the area is some sort of over-unified bastardasation of a multi-manual thing. I do not even think they are worth of being called an organ. I play at a church with a 2 manual 17 rank pipe organ. It is garbage. It was completed in 1989, and later moved to a larger sanctuary built in the late 90's. Most of the pedal division is electronic--like it sounds like sound effects from the Jetsons--it's bad. The best features of it are the chimes and the zimblesterne--(Do they count as a rank? I left the electronic stops out, but the chimes and zimblesterne are real--so I guess it is a 19 rank...)
We also have a very nice solo flute, however there is never an occasion to use such a soft solo flute, and the Music Director hates the zimblesterne--So I only use it for Preludes, because he is warming up the choir in the choir room!!!!

Ramble...

I do see what you are saying about American organs--but there are very few quality instruments out there. The best organ in my area is a Wurlitzer at the Byrd Theatre in Richmond--not exactly a classical instrument, but kept in wonderful shape--it even has a button to set off sparklers--yes the 4th of July kind--that is small hand-held fireworks on a stick, or coming out of the console, near the disco ball--yes disco ball!!!

Another thing on pipe organs, especially good quality ones--what church can afford one? I play at a 2,500 member church, with an avarage attendance of 1,500 any given weekend--our entire annual budget is only like $2.4 million--a decent pipe organ would cost double or more. OUr congregation says how much they love the hear the organ, and want it to be upgraded, the only money people gave last year the the organ fund was $1,300--and that was from my family!

Thank you to all who actually read this and at least see where I am coming from--I agree with you all too.

I do use Hauptwerk, and I love it--the sound, the look, everything but having to use a cumbersome computer as its interface--if only it came buit in to a keyboard...Even when using a laptop--I used it several Sundays for services, but constantly moving around computer stuff is a pain...


Mikey

Viscount were offered my Willis and other samples some years ago for FREE ...............

Charles,

I'm surprised to read that you offered a commercial company your samples for free, yet you offer them to working class people like myself for a large price. Please understand that I'm not saying your samples are overpriced, because I think they are in fact quite a good value for a Willis lover. I have seen in the software industry where a software developer will allow individuals to use the product free, provided it is for personal use, but charge a fee if it will be used at a for-profit company. Ultimately, it is your choice what you do with your sample set, I just think it might be interesting to read your reasoning on this.

Another thing on pipe organs, especially good quality ones--what church can afford one? I play at a 2,500 member church, with an avarage attendance of 1,500 any given weekend--our entire annual budget is only like $2.4 million--a decent pipe organ would cost double or more. OUr congregation says how much they love the hear the organ, and want it to be upgraded, the only money people gave last year the the organ fund was $1,300--and that was from my family!

I have to confess I'm completely taken aback by your numbers. Would a decent organ REALLY gost $5m?! Maybe things are different in the US but thinking of some recent examples with which I've been personally involved, my college bought a 30-stop 4-manual organ from a Swiss-French organ builder for less than 200,000 British pounds. Sure, that's in a small chapel but it's a ridiculously large organ for such a small chapel and I'm sure could easily fill a large church too. Then the church where I learn to play has just procured a 2nd organ, circa 20 stops for 150,000 pounds.

The other thing I'm somewhat gobsmacked by is the fact that from a congregation of 1,500 people you've managed to raise - well - nothing towards the organ fund. Why? My church has a regular congregation of 50 (!) and we managed to raise the 20,000 pounds for new pews in a matter of weeks. We should be launching an organ fund soon (I just need to work on that ...) and I don't expect the fundraising to be anything like as difficult as you are experiencing.

I'm just a bit surprised, that's all, that with such a huge congregation (that most British churches can't even imagine, even cathedrals) it appears to be so hard to raise funds for an organ.

Daiv.d

Dear 8ft,

At the time I offered my samples to Viscount the likes of Hauptwerk and other samples based systems via a PC were not even a remote possibility.

What was offered to Viscount at the time were the raw samples as they had been recorded with no editing whatsoever. Only the likes of such companies as Viscount had the many thousands of pounds worth of facilities and equipment to create organ stops from raw samples and then write them into a system where they were burned onto permanent chips to form part of a playable instrument.

Thus at the time, there was absolutely no commercial possibility for anyone working on their own or even as a small partnership. However, I had good samples of famous organs which were certainly far better than anything that Viscount had and I was also selling the odd Viscount to private users and churches as part of my business. I might not have liked the instruments particularly but I was trying to earn a living at the time and providing said instruments were carefully installed with a decent speaker system, they were the only route for an inpecunious church.

Anything that could improve on the pretty awful sound of the Viscounts would mean that I then had a product which I had more good conscience to sell to a customer with the confidence that what was being sold was pretty much as good as it could get for both the price and the technology of the time.

So I might not have earned anything from the provision of the original samples which I couldn't have done anything with anyway but I would have potentially been able to earn far more from a vastly improved instrument along with the hope that they would then start paying me decent money to capture new samples.

However, all this changed when Gigastudio and HW etc. plus the reduced price of RAM and increased computing power from a normal everyday PC entered the fray. Don't forget that then (and we are only talking a few years here), the maximum amount of RAM that could be addressed was very small and a mere 32Mb of RAM cost as much as a complete system today ! Add to that that PCs were just not capable of running even a single small one manual instrument and the above comment might make more sense.