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MW 3-31. Dry sample recordings??

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imcg110

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MW 3-31. Dry sample recordings??

PostThu Aug 02, 2007 6:57 am

Hi Guys

Does Brett/Jim/anyone else have a raw, dry, staight out the soundcard recording of the MW 3-31?? I am planning to do the rounds to buy speakers for the system following on from the discussion on Tibias. I would be good to carry a CD or ipod test file or two with me to hear the differences between what is available. I know I could probably do this myself, but I haven't got to that page in the book yet - and why reinvent the wheel if it already exists.

I know there are lots of flaws re voicing, multiple ranks through one source, mp3 compression etc, but it must be better than the Guy-in-the-shop's CD of Metallica or Celine Dion's greatest hits. After many years in pipe chambers I have got quite used to the dry sound!!


Do any of the Jelani recordings exist in raw form?? I have the Virginia dry file, but the MW3-31 would be greatly appreciated.

Iain
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B. Milan

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PostThu Aug 02, 2007 10:22 am

Hello Iain,

Jelani's recordings were recorded live in a large room, therefore we do not have them dry recorded straight through Hauptwerk's recording system. While I do have the MIDI files for playback I have been asked not to provide any dry recorded demos of Jelani's performances. As for myself doing them, I am not a theatre organist, so you would fare much better recording some dry examples yourself of exactly what you would like to hear then bringing those recordings to the speaker outlet for comparisons.

Is it possible for you to bring a laptop running HW2 with an audio card that you can connect to the speakers? Then you can play the organ in real time while listening as long as you have a MIDI keyboard or sequencer available with your laptop. Perhaps contact the speaker outlet prior to visiting to see if they can accomodate your needs before you arrive. I know of some places that will be happy to help out in this regard (here in the U.S at any rate!).

If not, then I suggest simply recording demos using just single stops so you can plug each individual demo into the speaker systems and hear how a particular rank sounds through those speakers. However you will know what you are wanting to hear, so you can certainly configure it to your own needs according to how you want to hear ranks through various speakers.
Brett Milan
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MILAN DIGITAL AUDIO
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imcg110

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PostThu Aug 02, 2007 10:32 am

Thanks Brett. I hadn't thought of the laptop option (Duh!!!). Although it struggles with the sample set (processor a bit slow), it would be fine for testing. There should be no problem with a MIDI keyboard - the place is full of them.

Iain
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PostThu Aug 02, 2007 9:31 pm

Hi Iain,

If you discover some good affordable speakers that sound good with tibias, let me (or all of us) know! I am still looking! I am still not happy with the tibia sound I am getting out of my chamber. Still too much IM for me.

Thanks,

Jim Gallops
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Jim Reid

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PostThu Aug 02, 2007 9:53 pm

Jim,

What speakers are you routing your Tibia stops to now?
Interesting to know.
Jim Reid
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PostFri Aug 03, 2007 3:35 am

If I find a good solution, I will let you know.

In the interim, have a look at the "competition". There is a detailed spreadsheet from John Giacci showing their audio set-up along with a discussion of what is best for different sounds.

http://www.keymediaproductions.com/foru ... ?topic=7.0
http://www.johngiacchi.com/319audio.xls


Iain
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PostFri Aug 03, 2007 12:56 pm

Great information, especially the spreadsheet. I wonder if one really has to go to a Mackie SA1530Z for Tibias, though. Most of the Tibia's energy is in the fundamental. Even a 1' pipe at 512 Hz is being handled mostly by the 15" driver. (The SA1530Z crosses over to the mid-range at 700 Hz.) I don't think the high output mid-range is going to get much use in a 3-way system. Even cranked way up, the midrange and tweeter are going to be doing very little. I don't think that's where the IM issue is.

At $2600 a pair (and one would probably want two pair at $5200 for MW3-31's two Tibias), that's a lot of money if it ends up being overkill which I suspect would be the case.

Perhaps something like the Mackie SRM450 at $700 each would be nearly as good for Tibias, at least in my 5700 cu. ft. room.

-David
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PostFri Aug 03, 2007 2:10 pm

dna wrote: At $2600 a pair (and one would probably want two pair at $5200 for MW3-31's two Tibias), that's a lot of money if it ends up being overkill which I suspect would be the case. Perhaps something like the Mackie SRM450 at $700 each would be nearly as good for Tibias, at least in my 5700 cu. ft. room.


The street price seems to be about $1000 USD each for the SR1530. I have never had a pair in the house, but I have owned the SRM450 and HR824. The 824s are vastly superior (IMHO) to the 450s, at least in the size room one would normally have in a house. The 824s are almost as accurate as the B&Ws and have a street price of about $500 ea. They can also play surprisingly loud and have deeper bass than the larger 450s. A real acid test for me has been to play a sampled piano (Bosendorfer) through test speakers and the 824s do a great job on that. Solo Tibia, Brahms, Grateful Dead, Pat Metheny also. Haven't heard the Mk2 version yet, it may be better still.

Joe H.
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PostFri Aug 03, 2007 3:49 pm

I grabbed the wrong model number. I didn't realize that there are two different 1530A models. There is the SR1530A (the one listed in the spreadsheet) which has a total of 500 watts of amps. As Joe says, that streets for $1000. Then there's the SA1530A, which is the one I specified, which has higher output with 1300 watts total which streets for $1300.
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PostFri Aug 03, 2007 5:41 pm

Well - I took the laptop to the shop today and had a look at stuff around the £300/pair mark. I plan to build up bit by bit. First step was to get something best suited to the foundation stops that will carry the rest of the organ until I get round to buying more gear. A very nice young man spent a lot of time mixing and matching. Yamaha, Wharfdale M-audio and Alesis were fine with a CD but nasty with an organ. Behringer 2031A.....well sir, we just don't stock them, we had lots of problems with them and we don't like the sound. We can get you much better for the money!! So.....Mackie Tapco S8....sounded good. Designed for hip hop mix (you will all so hate the website!!) seemed to be able to take tremulating fundamentals with ease. Combined with the SW10 sub it provided a balanced package for the core flues. The other units that impressed were the KRK RP6 - sounded bigger and more refined than the RP5. The KRK RP10 sub however was a bit OTT.

Since the Tapco was on special offer, I have ordered a set.

Iain
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PostSat Aug 04, 2007 5:34 am

imcg110 wrote:So.....Mackie Tapco S8....sounded good.

Iain,

Thanks for sharing your findings. Since I have enormous respect for Mackie, I will find a local dealer and try a pair. Street price in the USA is $500 / pr. It would certainly be nice to find an accurate speaker system at that price point. You may want to check out the HR824 which may be discounted due to the arrival of the Mk2 version. The 824s are outstanding speakers.

Joe H.
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PostSat Aug 04, 2007 9:24 am

Hi Iain,

Did you try the KRK RP8 speakers?

John
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PostSun Aug 05, 2007 8:35 am

No - they didn't have any - having heard the 5 and 6's I can only imagine that they would be good. The benefit of the Tapcos was a very well balanced sub woofer setup. The KRK sub just didn't sit well with the RP5 and 6 - maybe it does with the 8???????

Looking at John Giacci's sheet, for my set up, I can see advantages of having manual and offset chests all fed via the same channel. I have some big Peavey bass amps that I could use, but getting the continuity correct from 16 to 8 foot range using disparate technology would be difficult. I may reserve this for the 32's alone. It probably works better if they stand out from the ensemble anyway. My peavey and is retrofitted with a 3" cone to take upper partials.

Iain
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PostMon Aug 06, 2007 9:25 am

One thing missing from this conversation is the use of subwoofers. Studio monitors, while very clear, lack much bottom end and are primarily for voice. By themselves they may be useable down to 8’, but come up short at 16’. The demos by Neil Jensen and John Giacchi were recorded with Behringer B2031A monitors, but also included subwoofers.

For the price of one HR824 you can get two B2031A’s and a B2092 sub. In that price range I don’t think the Behringer has an equal for value.

If you are really serious about 16’ and 32’ stops then you should really be looking at Definitive Technology’s speakers.
http://www.definitivetech.com

Cheers,

Joe
Last edited by Joe on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostMon Aug 06, 2007 10:02 am

The mackie tapco set comes with a sub (SW 10). You plug 2 channels into the sub, set the crossover frequency and everything above this is sent up to the 2 monitors. This sub unit has a response down to 34Hz which will handle 16' fundamentals (just). One could argue as to the cost effectiveness of getting down to 16 Hz needed for the 32' range. Given that this is felt rather than heard, I plan to use the big Peavey bass unit. This is PA equipment rather than studio monitor. This will get part of the way, but bear in mind that most of the sound will come from the harmonics, not the fundamental. Even a sub woofer with limited range will beef up those first and second harmonics for the bass pipes even if it gets nowhere near the fundamental. Monitors alone will not cope.

Iain
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