Schnitger Cappel quality of sound

[Uwe Mahnken]

Unfortunately there are only a few recordings with the real Cappel Schnitger available. I do have the CD with Egbert Ennulat and although I like his style of organ playing not that much (I do like for example Gustav Leonhardt's style very, very much - I heard him last week in Norden/Germany with the great Arp Schnitger organ, it was so wonderful!), however the recording is welcome to compare the real Cappel Schnitger with the HW version from Milan Digitalaudio. I recorded some bars of the CD pieces myself with HW and of course using the same registrations as Ennulat. The result was interesting. The Ennulat CD has more room sound, maybe because of other microphon positioning, maybe because the audio engineer added some effects to the recordings - I don't know.

It seems that the Hauptwerk (of the real organ ...) sounds more brilliant (and louder?) - anyway the CD give me this impression. Remarkable detail: the Scharff in RP is always much more present on the CD recordings, i.e. Sweelinkck variation 6. This can be changed with HW voicing options with good results.

Meanwhile I created a custom organ file for the Cappel succesfully (only for own use). Most work was to find the correct amplitude levels of the stops (the original ODF is encrypted). Since this work is completed the organ sounds nearly identical to the organ with the original ODF. So Brett, I think there are not so many important settings in your ODF which influences the sound very much (mainly what not could be done within the CODM). I have enlarged the compass of the manuals and the pedal. Also I have added an "Oberwerk" with stops from the little Eenum Schnitger organ (the room sounds similar).

Uwe

[Anton Heger]

Hello Uwe,

Maybe this is more a question for Brett, but sharing your ODF with others, is that illegal? I am really interested in your ODF and I wish I could make it myself.

Anton

[Uwe Mahnken]

Hello Anton,

I don't know if this would be illegal. In either case Brett and Fred (from Sygsoft) should be asked for permission. If there is no problem then I would share my ODF.

Uwe

[JPSmith]

Have you heard the Helmut Walcha CD "Organ Masters Before Bach"? It gives a somewhat different perspective on the Cappel Schnitger from Ennulat's disc. Walcha's registrations are wonderful IMO.

[Uwe Mahnken]

Have you heard the Helmut Walcha CD "Organ Masters Before Bach"? It gives a somewhat different perspective on the Cappel Schnitger from Ennulat's disc. Walcha's registrations are wonderful IMO.

Yes, but I think Walcha's recordings are BEFORE the Cappel was restored. So there is nothing to compare ...

Uwe

[Marco]

Hello Anton,

I don't know if this would be illegal. In either case Brett and Fred (from Sygsoft) should be asked for permission. If there is no problem then I would share my ODF.

Uwe

hopefully Brett will chime in, but given that the ODF was your own work I am not sure how they could claim copyright to that...

[B. Milan]

Hello Uwe,

Please feel free to offer your CODM file for other Schnitger users. Since the set is protected this file will only be able to be used by licensed users anyway. As long as you are not passing out newly created sample files from renaming (or anything similar) or other material taken directly from the Schnitger set and only the CODM file itself we have no problem with that. All images and other sample files are copyrighted, so you cannot send these out, only the CODM file.

Please also make sure you have permission from Sygsoft. It might be worth stating that users would need to have the Sygsoft Schnitger as well since you have combined them.

So Brett, I think there are not so many important settings in your ODF which influences the sound very much (mainly what not could be done within the CODM).

You have just stated yourself how much work it took you to achieve a similar/balanced sound. ;)

Please keep in mind all of the other features as well including wind system (very complex!!), tremulants, noises, and there are also several settings which utilize the harmonic filters. I haven't ever mentioned that you will not get a good sound from using the CODM, just that you need to be aware that by removing it from the original ODF you are effectively removing all of the above mentioned features and would need to be prepared (as you were) to spend time in tweaking the instrument to sound correct (to the original ODF).

As long as you are happy with the result then that is what matters and I am happy for you.

Regarding the CD comparison, this has been discussed before with other sets, including the upcoming Metz. Comparing two different recordings using different equipment and different engineers and different years for that matter will influence many factors in the organs sound. Perhaps the CD recordings were modified, I don't know. I have another fairly recent CD of the organ which adds artificial reverb to compensate for the lack of it in the room. So, one cannot judge from these things too well without knowledge of how the recordings were rendered.

Bottom line is this, for those that have the desire to tweak until the organ sounds as they want it then the HW Concert Edition is the answer and the reason we have allowed the voicing options to be available.

[Marco]

I have another fairly recent CD of the organ which adds artificial reverb to compensate for the lack of it in the room.

wow, that is quite surprising, I'd have thought that classical music CDs would be fairly immune from the usual post production trickery that goes on in most other genres... did the CD leaflet disclose this? or did you find out just because you know the organ well?

[sutherland]

A slight digression, but how many of you who are using this organ have switched the manuals around? I've noticed that the HW is played by the upper and the RP by the lower on some other Arp Schnitger organs--was that the norm? I see that they've been changed round on the Zlata Koruna sample set (http://www.sonusparadisi.cz/organs/zlkor/history.0.asp), but I'd be interested to know what others have done with this.

[Uwe Mahnken]

A slight digression, but how many of you who are using this organ have switched the manuals around? I've noticed that the HW is played by the upper and the RP by the lower on some other Arp Schnitger organs--was that the norm? I see that they've been changed round on the Zlata Koruna sample set (http://www.sonusparadisi.cz/organs/zlkor/history.0.asp), but I'd be interested to know what others have done with this.

A Rückpositiv is nearly always played from the lowest manual. Why should one change this?

Uwe

[Uwe Mahnken]

Thank you Brett for your permission!

A forums user asked me about the costs. If Fred also agrees I will publish the file for free download on my homepage. Furthermore I will add a little tutorial how to create such files with the help of Principal. But be patient please ...

Uwe

[B. Milan]

I have another fairly recent CD of the organ which adds artificial reverb to compensate for the lack of it in the room.


wow, that is quite surprising, I'd have thought that classical music CDs would be fairly immune from the usual post production trickery that goes on in most other genres... did the CD leaflet disclose this? or did you find out just because you know the organ well?

The CD insert did not mention anything about it, however it is fairly obvious when listening to the releases. Since I of course spent a good deal of time at the organ I know the acoustics do not sound like they are on the CD, thus there is only one conclusion! I am not at all saying it is a poorly recorded CD, just that some reverb was added after the fact (and not convolution if my ears tell me correctly). Most likely some basic digital reverb. There are a LOT of classical CDs out there with all sorts of "trickery" which you may never think possible! It's more common than you might think.

A slight digression, but how many of you who are using this organ have switched the manuals around? I've noticed that the HW is played by the upper and the RP by the lower on some other Arp Schnitger organs--was that the norm?

Since the RP is located behind the organist the clearest route for the trackers is to have the RP keyboard on the bottom and this simplfies matters for not having to cross any mechanisms/trackers inside the case to have a clear run under the floor covering to the RP division.

Thank you Brett for your permission!

No problem, you're quite welcome.

[JulianMoney-Kyrle]

I went along to a few classical recording sessions once with Decca and I was astonished at how much trickery went into the production. One session was a Mozart piano concerto (I won't say which one, or which artist) in which the final release was cobbled together from about a hundred takes. Despite this it sounded wonderful and had a good review from Gramaphone magazine.

As a balance to that, I also watched them recording Andras Schiff playing the Well-Tempered Clavier book 2. He recorded the preludes and fugues in straight sets of eight pieces at a time, and then repeated the whole take twice more before going on to the next set. Each time he played the pieces they were so different from the previous time (tempo, phrasing, ornaments - all quite spontaneous) that the recording engineer despaired of ever being able to cut and paste, and in the end the decision was simply a question of which performance of each piece to release.

This whole process highlights the difference between studio and concert recordings, but I think it also puts a lot of pressure on musicians since we are used to hearing commercial recordings with all the wrong notes edited out.

[pwhodges]

This whole process highlights the difference between studio and concert recordings,

I would say it highlights the difference between some engineers or companies and others. Nimbus, for instance, never edit below the level of a movement in their studio recordings; and "live" recordings are often made up from several performances (sometimes with a "studio" session as well). There is a similar range of variability in microphone techniques, from the simplest single-point setup (Nimbus again, and others) to loads of microphones whose outputs are assembled to create a sound picture.

For my money, editing is far less harmful to the end result than poor microphone technique. OK, so I'm a whizzy editor; but I would always, for instance, work with one take as the master, using others simply to patch it - and I guarantee you won't know where it was done (on one of my recordings I admit that there is a transition that sounds a little like an edit even to me - but I know that it is not!).

Paul

[adri]

For anyone interested, I still have the LP set of Walcha playing the Cappel for sale. Make me an offer, and I'll send it to you plus Postage.