new project: 4 manual Schnitger organ Zwolle Netherlands

[martinf]

Hi,

According to a newsitem on dutch website, Jiri Zurek of Sonus Paradisi is recording a huge 4(!) manual Schnitger organ of Zwolle in the Netherlands.

The newsitem:
http://www.orgelnieuws.nl/wcms/modules/ ... oryid=2178

The details of the organ:
http://www.schnitgerorgelzwolle.nl/orgel.php?sub=6

This would be a nice new hauptwerk sampleset. Unfortunately I guess the set would not fit on my computer :-(

[martinf]

found some more links about this exiting project:

http://www.destentor.nl/zwolle/article1955563.ece
http://www.destentor.nl/zwolle/article1955568.ece

movie:
http://www.destentor.nl/stentortv/regio ... 954079.ece

[Anton Heger]

Some pictures and the stoplist of this instrument
http://www.hgunnink.nl/fgrkerk.htm#f7
Enjoy!
Anton

[Franz64]

Hello all,

here are some more details on the instrument:
ftp://ftp.wu-wien.ac.at/pub/earlym-l/or ... .-.nl.1721

As you can see, while a large number of original stops are there, most of the reeds and mixtures are modern reconstructions by Flentrop, to revert changes made to the original Schnitger stops.
Has anybody more details on how accurate this reconstruction was ?
I could not find more details on the web (e.g. mixture compositions).
Is the sound of this organ similar to the Alkmaar F.C.Schnitger organ, built only few years later ?

In any case, I expect this will be a very interesting (to say the least) instrument, and I await anxiously more details from J.Zurek....

Francesco

[imcg110]

Have a look at this

http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~oneskull/3.6.19.htm

This is an essay by Stephen Bicknell on the Alkmaar organ - much of the recent restoration done by Flentrop too. It make the interesting comparison between father and son Schnitger mechanics and tonal philosophy. The Walcha recordings from the early 50's on alkmaar can easily be found on CD. Personally, I have a lot of time for the FC sound.

I wonder which tonal camp has the dominant sound here

I await with interest. Has anyone come across on line recordings of zwolle??

[Jim Reid]

This is excellent and exciting news!!

I had the great privilege to see and play
this instrument in 1981, that Summer. Wow,
at last I will have it's sound in my home.

Would be nice, as with the Litomysl to have
both "room ambiance" and dry sample
sets. Bet Jiri offers both, in time!!

[Jim Reid]

Should add that I visited at the Flentrop
factory also that Summer. Again, excellence
everywhere.....

[imcg110]

Zwolle recordings:

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/mus ... Murray.htm

From the CD Bach at Zwolle - Michael Murray

[Jim Reid]

To martinf,

Of course it can be fit to your two manuals. Jiri always provides
couplers between manuals, as on the Litomysl set. You can
bring the top and third manuals down to your top manual,
I would be almost certain. If you view the video link posted
above of the Zwolle instrument, you can see the keys of the
upper manuals depressing, via the tracker action, when the
lower manuals are being played. Jiri will include that in
his ODF for this instrument, I am sure.

And thank you for alerting us to this coming set, sometime
later in 2008 I suppose.

[adri]

I am going to speak very frankly here. We Dutchmen aren't afraid to speak our mind and express strong opinions, so here it goes:

I am sorry, but I am not at all pleased by this choice of Zwolle. The organ, as a baroque instrument, is not very good. It has lost its baroque sound a great deal.

The restoration carried out by Flentrop in the 1950s has really done a lot of harm to the sound, and this organ really should first get an authentic style restoration and reconstruction. The same holds true for the Muller organ in the Bavokerk of Haarlem: poorly altered by Marcussen, now a half-breed baroque and half-breed modern organ. Both organs are not real baroque organs.

The better larger baroque organs to sample in Holland would be:
Groningen, Martinikerk
Leeuwarden, Grote Kerk
Deventer, Lebiuniuskerk
Alkmaar, Grote Kerk
Amsterdam, Nieuwe Kerk

Not Zwolle. This organ is the last baroque organ that hasn't been restored yet the way it ought to be.

If I were Juri, I would look for other instruments. Bigger is not better here.

Not disrespect intended here, but there are better instruments to sample. Also, since Kampen is being done anyway, what's the point of having Zwolle?

Please, for the future of Hauptwerk, let us think quality, not quantity!

[Jim Reid]

adri,

Suppose only the Schnitger ranks within the following list were to
be played:

ftp://ftp.wu-wien.ac.at/pub/earlym-l/or ... .-.nl.1721

would the organ be suitable for you. Perhaps the pedal would be too
limited...


Or, were not just ranks added by
Flentrop, but were some original ranks deleted. Maybe the Flentrop
additions were only to replace many of the ranks added over the
centuries?

[adri]

Look, we all know that just because it has Schnitger ranks, it may not sound like a Schnitger rank anymore. Take e.g. the organ of the Oude Kerk in Amsterdam: it's not a true Christian Vater organ (pupil of Schnitger) anymore, but was extensively redone by Witte in the 19th century. So it's a kind of a romantic baroque organ, not an authentic baroque organ. It has lots of character, but it's not true baroque.

Likewise, Zwolle still has plenty of Schnitger material, plus lots of Flentrop pipes too, to replace stops that were added in the 19th C.; but the voicing, wind pressure, tuning, etc. all have altered the way this organ ought to sound.

And that's why I think it's not an ideal organ to sample. The several recordings I have of the organ bear this out. I have heard it several times in concert, even played it myself. It's large, but badly in need of a real good restoration.

[Jim Reid]

Ok, thanks.

[Anton Heger]

Adri wrote

Please, for the future of Hauptwerk, let us think quality, not quantity!

Quality in HW term means first of all quality of the sample set, not quality of the organ. Dry Litomysl is a very high quality sample set but one can discuss about the quality of the organ itself. It is not 'one organ', but more a combination of three different ones (if not four).
Hauptwerk is, in my opinion, not primarily made for the purposes Adri seems to have in mind: preservation of the sound of old organs. Hauptwerk is used by a lot of us to be able to play different organs with different characters with a sound quality which can not be reached bij factories like Johannus or so.

I have a recording of Bram Beekman in Zwolle. It is a great fun to listen to this organ. And it would be a great fun to play on it, at home.

Regards,
Anton
(a Dutchmen too...)

I am going to speak very frankly here. We Dutchmen aren't afraid to speak our mind and express strong opinions

[Radioman]

I am sorry, but I am not at all pleased by this choice of Zwolle. The organ, as a baroque instrument, is not very good. It has lost its baroque sound a great deal.

Why are you so critical, Adri? Ofcourse it is true that the Zwolle Schnitger is in need of a restoration according to the latest principles. But even in its present state I think the organ will still be a valuable addition to the Hauptwerk library.
When Flentrop restorated the organ back in the 1950's the experts didn't have the knowledge they now have. But don't we all enjoy the sound of the Helmut Walcha recordings at the Alkmaar Schnitger? This organ was also restorated by Flentrop directly after the second World War, and it wasn't until the second Flentrop restoration (in the 1980's) that the instrument got back its proper wind supply.
You say you don't like the sound of the Zwolle instrument. Listen to Bram Beekman's recording of Bach's "Corelli" Fugue BWV 579. Don't you just love those wonderful 8' and 4' flutes?

Also, since Kampen is being done anyway, what's the point of having Zwolle?

I don't understand this. Kampen is a totally different instrument by another builder. Do you mean to say, that for you, only one Silbermann, one Schnitger, one Cavaille-Coll etc, will do?

There are other reasons why the sampling of the Zwolle organ is great news. I really do hope this project will serve to have a positive "psychological" effect on church committees elsewhere who until now refuse to have their organs sampled. You know the Dutch saying: "Als er één schaap over de dam is, volgen er meer" (If one sheep leaps over the ditch all the rest will follow).
Lastly, the organ is being sampled by Jiri Zurek. Jiri is a producer of first class sample sets, so I rest assured the organ is in good hands.

All the best!