Link to hear the Schnitgerorgan,Zwolle sampled by Jiri Zurek

[elec]

Here I have some internet connections to hear some organists which
played the Schnitger organ on the big church to Zwolle
I am from holland and I read on the forum that Jiri is sampling the Schnitger in Zwolle and I thought to place some older radio recordings.
I find this an beautiful organ .

1971/Ton Koopman plays compositions of Sweelinck, Gibbons,
Buxtehude, Daquin and Stanley on the Schnitger-organ in the Big
Church to Zwolle
>>
>> http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav= ... GAiBzBeBgF

>>
1988/Charles the Wolff plays compositions of Lübeck and Karg-elert on the Schnitger-organ in the Big Church to Zwolle
>>
>> http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav= ... tGAiBzBeBH

[[)Naeryl(]]

Wow....the beginning of the Karg-Elert piece upon B.A.C.H. is.... "dark"!!!! Impressive sound!!!

I wish the sound of the Jiri's ambiental set is something like this, especially without a too close Positif recording.

And what an polyvalent organ, at it ease in different repertories... Unsuspected!

[adri]

Here I go again:

The fact that a romantic like Siegfried Karg-Elert sounds almost convincingly good on a Schnitger Baroque organ from the early 18th century proves again that Dirk Flentrop managed to alter the organ to such a significant degree, even while supposedly restoring its original specification as much as possible. In the playing by Koopman and De Wolff, I distinctly hear 1950s neo-baroque sounds and voicing being mixed in with potentially (revoiced as well) older sounds. Bottom line: this organ doesn't sound too much like a real Schnitger organ, that's for sure!

The Baroque pieces played by Ton Koopman clearly demonstrate how much this organ has been altered from its original voicing. Wait till this instrument is redone, and tuned to an older temperament (I hope they will do this, but it is unlikely). I know I have spoken strongly against sampling this organ for authenticity reasons (if you want a “compromis organ”, there are so many better ones to choose from), and will continue to do so, but I also find the overwhelming acoustics of this church not ideal for a sample set, which should remain transparent. Reverb is fine, but too much reverb is not. It runs the danger of turning the player into a listener. Also, the wind supply of this organ must have been altered, it sounds awfully too smooth.

[telemanr]

I've always been puzzled by this objection to wind supply being too smooth since there's quite enough variation in the sound of organs just because of the physics of pipes crammed into spaces and being near one another and bouncing off another pipe, and the mixing of sound waves in general, etc., etc. Let's have flute players who really can't quite control their wind supply adequately. It will add to the charm?

Is it simply lack of authenticity being objected to? If there was a hole in the bellows then, there should be one now? I can't imagine Bach, for instance, insisting that no one improve the wind supply in any organ he was going to play. Can we really imagine that he, or anyone else, would positively wish to always hear, for instance, the slump or bounce in pitch/sound when a full organ chord was sounded? Percussion bellows or anything alike are not wanted? What I can imagine is being forced to choose a lighter registration to avoid this effect when you really wished you didn't have to compromise the sound you actually wanted to hear properly.
It's a bit like enjoying the hiccup in the middle register of a piano Glenn Gould had specially regulated presumably to annoy everyone who bought the record. It adds nothing to the music. (not to mention the "singing")

I'm sure I'll get a good bashing over this. But what the heck.
Rob

[elec]

Here I go again:

The fact that a romantic like Siegfried Karg-Elert sounds almost convincingly good on a Schnitger Baroque organ from the early 18th century proves again that Dirk Flentrop managed to alter the organ to such a significant degree, even while supposedly restoring its original specification as much as possible. In the playing by Koopman and De Wolff, I distinctly hear 1950s neo-baroque sounds and voicing being mixed in with potentially (revoiced as well) older sounds. Bottom line: this organ doesn't sound too much like a real Schnitger organ, that's for sure!

The Baroque pieces played by Ton Koopman clearly demonstrate how much this organ has been altered from its original voicing. Wait till this instrument is redone, and tuned to an older temperament (I hope they will do this, but it is unlikely). I know I have spoken strongly against sampling this organ for authenticity reasons (if you want a “compromis organ”, there are so many better ones to choose from), and will continue to do so, but I also find the overwhelming acoustics of this church not ideal for a sample set, which should remain transparent. Reverb is fine, but too much reverb is not. It runs the danger of turning the player into a listener. Also, the wind supply of this organ must have been altered, it sounds awfully too smooth.

I place this post for the lovers from this organ
Your commentary did you yet in different earlier posts
It is not neccesary to said your critic each moment and it is also
not fair to the sample maker.

[Anton Heger]

Your commentary did you yet in different earlier posts
It is not neccesary to said your critic each moment and it is also
not fair to the sample maker.

I second that.

[Anton Heger]

Helo all,

Here is another link to music from the Zwolle organ.
Piet van Egmond (on vinyl!) plays 4 pieces from Bach.
Charles de Wolff plays Mendelsohn (Sonate 3 and 6) and Buxtehude (also on vinyl):
http://www.orgelradio.nl/wcms/modules/news/article.php?storyid=182

And here is the other info about these perfomances:
http://www.orgelnieuws.nl/wcms/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2306

Anton

[telemanr]

I think Ari needs to take a nap...as in "give it a rest".

[Marco]

I second that.

amen, it would be nice to open a thread where this organ is being discussed without having to go over and over and over again the same 'it's not authentic' spiel. If you don't like it, don't buy it, please leave the poor dead horse alone.

[adri]

Sorry, but I am right awake.

Authenticity remains a main ingredient for proper organ literature interpretation. We cannot play Sweelinck or Buxtehude on a Cavaille-Coll organ, can we now, but it's OK to enjoy Karg-Elert and Mendelssohn on a Schnitger?

To me, the authentic organs (old organs that have not been altered much and give us a good idea of how music of its time and locale should be played on it) that have been sampled by Hauptwerk sample producers, have been an eye opener to me. To me, each and every new sample set should teach me how to play old music as authentically as possible, to enjoy it to the fullest, whether it's 19th or 17th century music.

Even Neo-baroque music on a neo-baroque organ is fine, but don't' expect to enjoy real baroque music to the same degree on it as on a real baroque organ (e.g. the Flentrop at the Bush-Reisinger Musuem at Harvard University, which I played many years ago, is a very fine and musical organ in its own right, but E. Power Biggs renditions of Bach I'd rather hear on a real Baroque organ).

I truly believe that my unrelenting push for authenticity remains a genuine concern.

I think it was Benny Goodman who said "If it sounds good, it is good", but this can also be taken out of context and be misused.

The music of each period and each country can be best appreciated if played on organs of its own time and locale. Hauptwerk sample set makers have a unique opportunity, and perhaps even obligation, to supply us with this historically grown international and fascinating palette of tonal colors, scalings, tuning systems, unique sounds, etc.

Am I wrong?

[Marco]

Am I wrong?

I don't think the discussion here is about if you are right or wrong, you are free to believe what you want, however I think a lot of people would prefer that you kept these beliefs to yourself from now on: you've made your points time and time again in this forum in several different threads, there is no need to keep beating the same dead horse every time this organ is mentioned.

I know I have spoken strongly against sampling this organ for authenticity reasons (if you want a “compromis organ”, there are so many better ones to choose from), and will continue to do so, but I also find the overwhelming acoustics of this church not ideal for a sample set, which should remain transparent.

feel free to sample whichever organ strikes you as being 'authentic', on the other hand this is a free world, so your continuing attacks about how somebody else's work (in this case Jiri) is wrong are in bad taste in my opinion.

[elec]

Am I wrong?

I don't think the discussion here is about if you are right or wrong, you are free to believe what you want, however I think a lot of people would prefer that you kept these beliefs to yourself from now on: you've made your points time and time again in this forum in several different threads, there is no need to keep beating the same dead horse every time this organ is mentioned.

I know I have spoken strongly against sampling this organ for authenticity reasons (if you want a “compromis organ”, there are so many better ones to choose from), and will continue to do so, but I also find the overwhelming acoustics of this church not ideal for a sample set, which should remain transparent.

feel free to sample whichever organ strikes you as being 'authentic', on the other hand this is a free world, so your continuing attacks about how somebody else's work (in this case Jiri) is wrong are in bad taste in my opinion.

Thanks Marco and Anton ,that is also my opinion

[adri]

Look, I have nothing against Jiri; he is free to come up with any sample set he likes to bring to the world. No problem. If you like it, great. But as an end user and customer of HW myself, I am also entitled to my opinions, which I will not repeat any more, since you say it's a dead horse.

Sorry to have offended anyone.

[stevetil]

... We cannot play Sweelinck or Buxtehude on a Cavaille-Coll organ, can we now...

I can.
I think that's a lovely thought.
I have also played Sweelinck and Buxtehude
on an E. M. Skinner romantic organ,
and Bach on Celestes and Vox Humanas!
I just like it when it sounds good.

Steve.

[[)Naeryl(]]

I TOTALLY agree with Stevetil:
Please Adri, let some people thinks that "authenticity" has no place to judge if a piece sounds good or not at a certain organ. If this organ was intented or not for playing this kind of piece (Bach,Karg-Elert...) is really not the question. The real question (for people having such point of view) is the results, and ONLY the result. I think this manner.

Of course we hear that the Zwolle organ show an evident "neo-baroque touch", but what's the problem if this sounds good?? (in a context of non-historic execution, but simply in an enjoyable execution context)