Prague Baroque - South German Virtual Organ Model

[zurek]

There is new Sonus Paradisi sample set ready for the interested audience. While many virtual models of organs have one specific instrument as the template, we decided to take different approach this time. The advantage of presenting a "South German Organ Model" without a direct connection to certain specific instrument is that it is more clearly shown that all the organs of this family in the given period are quite similar to each other and have many common characteristics, in spite of their differences. Nevertheless, there were two instruments which we have especially in mind when designing this sample set:

1) Klosterneuburg Freund instrument (1642)
2) Prague Mundt instrument (1673)

According to our knowledge these two instruments are the most representative and finest examples of this type of the organ given the period of the second half of 17th century.
The sample set is available in two forms: wet and dry. Both types of recording have already fans and therefore it seems very good to allow users to choose from these two very different options.
The sample set is presented here:

http://www.sonusparadisi.cz/organs/prag ... tory.0.asp

There is an introductory period and an introductory price, the sample set might be ordered on the order page.

[Stefanussen]

So, is this actually one instrument and you just don't want to divulge which one it is, or is a composite organ from different organs. If the latter is the case, were the acoustics similar, or how did you do the wet version?

[zurek]

Well, it is very simple answer: to all experts it is clear that the very base is the Prague Mundt Organ - my most beloved organ and really a treasure of the Czech Republic. The Klosterneuburg organ is present only in the extension.
The acoustic was met by special handling which I would not like to reveal for commercial reasons, but the base of it and its very core was the convolution. But not in a simple way. I think that secretly, all the sample set producers do this when making so called "virtual restorations" adding some foreign ranks to their wet sample set, but not all of us would most probably be willing to admit it...

[Stefanussen]

Ok, so the base specification is the Mundt organ, and then the 6-rank extension comes from the Klosterneuburg organ, is that right?

[zurek]

Well, you can check it yourself, just find on the internet the pages dedicated to Freund Klosterneuburg organ and those dealing with the Mundt Prague organ and compare the specifications:-)))

[gecko]

This is a highly interesting idea. I've been using Jiri's Zlata Koruna for Bach. We all grew up hearing Bach played on N German and Dutch instruments, but to my ears, the Czech and South German organs are much, much closer to the organs that Bach and his circle would actually have been most familiar with. The biggest limitation of the Zlata Koruna organ for me isn't the lack of reeds (smaller Thuringian organs didn't have any, or maybe only one in the pedal; middle-size organs usually had a 8' manual trumpet, but Bach ordered the one in Muhlhausen to be replaced by a 16' fagott, so he didn't think it was an essential stop) - the biggest limitation is the lack of a 16' manual stop since there's some repertoire that requires it.

Jiri mentions the following characteristics:


two short-octave manuals where the Rückpositiv is shaped to be the "smaller brother" of the Hauptwerk for dynamic and spatial contrast; limited pedal division of 18 tones;

The range is the biggest difference between the Czech/S German organs and Bach's organs -it's different between Catholic and Protestant organs, actually. And it's expanded in Hauptwerk, anyway, so there's no difference at all in Jiri's organ.


mild Principals with an expressive speech even on very low wind pressures;

Definitely characteristic of Bach's organs

sparkling and light sound of numerous mixtures which often include a tierce rank

Saxon and Thuringian organs also typically had mixtures with thirds

great variety of flute stops including the typical wooden Copulas -thinner Gedackts

A great variety of 8' flues was also characteristic of Thuringian and Saxon organs.

early appearance of strings

Definitely typical of Thuringian and Saxon organs - Jiri's organs are maybe a little too early for these; this is the biggest difference Jiri's organ and an up-to-date organ for Bach.


Anyway, I'm putting in my order right away.

[honza]

Let me add several remarks to Mundt organ as well as to impulse responses.
Just like with Jiri, Mundt organ is also "heart" instrument for me. I played it as student many years ago and I can compare its status pre and after reconstruction. Tyn instrument has quite specific sound ( due to instrument itself and acoustics). During recording of samples I was afraid of the result but I must say now the sampleset contains this "soul" quite exactly.
As for the reverb and impulse responses (IR): For recording of demos I´ve chosen original disposition and wet samples. At least at the beginning of my collaboration with Jiri I was very sceptic about IR. prof Maier is, of course, right the problem of IR is very complicated and only wet samples exactly document the original. However, comparison of wet Mundt and dry one with IR surprised me a lot. Jiri creates IR very diligently and precisely. I tried to move virtually Brett´s Schnitger form Cappel to larger church (in fact originally this instrument was in "such a" church). the same I did with prof Maier´s Silbermann and (despite these both are not dry samplesets in proper sense) the results were at least very interesting and satisfying. Despite I generally still strongly prefer original ambience and wet samplesets, I am now convinced, IR may be very promising (not only because of memory saving :O))

[honza]

Gecko, I appreciate your opinion about Czech organs and Bach. I remember one of our top organists playing Bach´s Fantasia c minor in Tyn several years ago in concert. It souned amazingly! You may try to do so now with Jiri´s new sample set! In fact, what is "Bach organ"? Despite being famous as organist, Bach spent quite short time actively playing organ and practically never he had satisfying instrument (maybe in Hamburg?). Your orientation to Saxon and Thuringian area is perfect I guess. As for Czech instruments, their limitations (beside already mentioned) concerning Bach from my point of view and experience are:
1) Manual and pedal compass and mostly pedal coupler absence (all this no problem in HW)
2) "many quints but no sesqiualteras or tertians etc" for colour choral playing
3) weak pedal disposition, no solo voices, seldom pedal couplers, compass
4) beauty of individual stops but sometimes no coherent or compact pleno and , as you mention, absence of "gravität", i.e. 16 stop manual voices
5) Tyn or Zlata koruna are (among Czech baroques) quite big instruments
their disposition is rich and sound more compact or as I say coherent. Majority of Czech baroque instruments are smaller and their intonation (sometimes, unfortunately tuning due to poor status :( ) is variable within pipe rank. Compare, for instance, Hrubý Rohozec
But, if you liked playing Bach on Zlatá Koruna extended, then, I believe, you sure will be fond of Mundt (extended because of compass). Jan

[positive]

Remembering the sound of the instrument from my time in Prague, I am certain I want the sample set. Thanks for making the extended version.

[gecko]

honza:
what is "Bach organ"? Despite being famous as organist, Bach spent quite short time actively playing organ and practically never he had satisfying instrument

By "Bach organ," I mean an organ that Bach would have expected for his music. Almost none Bach's music we have was written for himself (there are a few exceptions.) Organists improvised most of the time - Bach's fame wasn't due only to his technical ability to push down the keys. So, nearly all of Bach's organ music, and all of Baroque organ music in general, is gone.

Bach would have expected that most of his organ music would have been played on instruments in Thuringia and Saxony and that's where most of the manuscripts come from. (I don't know where the prints of Clavieruebung III wound up; those might have gotten a wider distribution.) So, whatever his personal preference in organs, that's not what his music was necessarily designed for.

(Incidentally, the statement that he regretted not having a big enough organ *might* be true, but it comes from CPE Bach who is very untrustworthy because he was always using his father's reputation to advance his own interests.)

The differences you list between Czech and Thuringian/Saxon organs are mostly due to the difference between Catholic and Protestant organs. Hauptwerk fixes some of these, as you mention - the manual and pedal compasses and coupler, plus the addition of the reeds in Jiri's "Prague Baroque" strengthens the pedal division. In my opinion, if Hauptwerk had been available, there would have been no need for the Thirty Years War.

As you mention, smaller Czech organs might not have a good plenum or might be in a poor state, but Tyn and Zlata Koruna are both very nice here (The Zlata Koruna is a little rough in spots, I admit.) The lack of sesquialter or some kind of tierce or cornett is also a problem - not all the Thuringian organs had them, either, but Bach liked them and a perfect Bach organ should have one (Zlata Koruna does), but there are other ways of emphasizing a chorale melody.

Anyway, my point is that the tonal universe of the Czech organs is similar to that of the Saxon/Thuringian organs that Bach was used to, and they are very welcome correctives to the Northern German/Dutch sound that are familiar to us but would have been more foreign to Bach.

[Dutch Brad]

These are certainly two great organs and likely the best in their type. Unfortunately the Prague organ was being restored when I visited it so I couldn't hear it live.

I am sure that much time was spent on the acoustics but to be honest it is quite dreadful and a dead give away that it is not real. Unfortunately (or maybe not) there are no reverb types/programs/systems available that get even close to the real thing. As long as we continue to use them, I don't think we will get much further than standard digital organs.

Perhaps some time in the future they will get better, but I won't hold my breath waiting.

On the bright side, fortunately we now have sound documents of two famous early baroque instruments.

[bcollins]

I am sure that much time was spent on the acoustics but to be honest it is quite dreadful and a dead give away that it is not real. Unfortunately (or maybe not) there are no reverb types/programs/systems available that get even close to the real thing. As long as we continue to use them, I don't think we will get much further than standard digital organs.

What are you listening to? I can only find demo recordings of the "wet" sample set [Wet version: recorded from a distance of about 6 meters from the pipes using ORTF stereo technique (different location of mics for Positiv and Hauptwerk to achieve good balance and stereo effect), multiple attack and release samples].

Are you implying that artificial reverb has been added to the wet samples, or the demo recordings post-production?

[Jan Škvařil]

Hi, it´s Honza from another login. I have recorded the demos using Prague baroque wet, 24 bit, Zurek modified tuning. I record via SPDIF using Sound Forge and really no additional reverb was added. In fact, natural reverb is very specific and rich in Týn and as somone who knows the original instrument and how it sounds, I can say the samples reflect the situation quite exactly. I have also experimented with dry and reverb ( with good results) but demos are not that case really. H

[Dutch Brad]

Jiri wrote:

"The acoustic was met by special handling which I would not like to reveal for commercial reasons, but the base of it and its very core was the convolution. But not in a simple way. I think that secretly, all the sample set producers do this when making so called "virtual restorations" adding some foreign ranks to their wet sample set, but not all of us would most probably be willing to admit it..."

I was refering to the extended addition with stops added from another organ. I have difficulties believing both the original stops and the added stops have not been modified to match each other, even if the acoustics in both of those churches were to be relatively the same.

The virtual reconstruction of the Vollenhove organ (with two stops from another Schnitger organ) shows the same. It is great to have been able to reconstruct this instrument, but the added reverbto those two stops, even though very well done, is nowhere near the real thing.

The only thing I am suggesting is that matching or adding acoustics to an organ at this point in time is impossible. I believe acoustics are far too complex to fit into some kind of computer program.

[positive]

"...I have difficulties believing both the original stops and the added stops have not been modified....

I do not believe my recollection is influenced by the fact that I frequently visited this church together with my future-to-be wife, but I can assure you that the Tyn set acoustics is the same as I remember it.
I have never been to Klosterneuburg, so can't vouch for the extension part, but I am glad Jiri offered also the extended version.