I have a 16' Quintadena and I know how to use it!

Actually, the title of this thread isn't strictly accurate. I'm seeking some opinions and ideas about how one might employ the aforementioned stop, and I'm hoping that some of you might be able to lay claim to the statement which is the title of this post and explain your thoughts.

Let me tell you where I've got to so far:

- I've come across an old thread on the organ forum, which isn't terribly useful, though it does mention the occasional indication of a 16' registration direction in Bach and various other composers' music where the stop might be appropriate.
- My own experience suggests that the stop is rarely useful as a chorus stop: adding it to an 8' chorus for the puspose of providing 16' tone often muddies the timbre and adds a gravelly, indistinct bass quality to the sound.
- I'm in possession of two sets - the PAB and Zwolle - which include examples of the stop.
- I'm aware that there are varying timbres of quintaton, with the relative proportions of fundamental, third and fifth harmonics being most responsible for the particular tone.
- I've researched the historical usage of the stop in Barbara Owen's "Registration of Baroque Organ Music" which indicates some curious registrations, but I'd be glad of hearing about some "real world" combinations.
- I have occasionally used the stop with a 4' flute as a registration for a running bass line which hints at 8' tone, but other than this rarely find any use for it. I'm suspecting that solo registrations may prove the most usual, but I can't seem to resolve on why it would have been considered useful, and at times - seemingly - essential?
- This curiosity relates to the use of the stop at 16' pitch - the application of 8'/4' examples (or a 16' played up an octave) seems more straightforward.

I've no idea why I've become particularly curious about this today, but I'd be most appreciative if any of you could indulge my curiosity by sharing your experience

Many thanks in advance,

Adam.

The 16' Quintadena immediately makes me think- Buxtehude pedal solos-in conjuction with other stops of course. Don't ask me to defend this but it did not arise from a dream.

Hi,

first I have to say that all registrations I do are based more on "that sounds nice to me" than on "this is correct/meant to be", but this is currently not difficult as using the organ as a BigBand (with all the typical music like "In the mood") leads me very little restrictions

So, my usage of the 16' stop(s) is usually as a solo voice, if available:
- 16' + 1' form a very nice voice, I came to this from Hammond-Organs
- 16' + 2' - substitution for 16+1
- 16' + 2 2/3' sound also nice, but only in the discant-region.
- 16' + 8'+ 2 2/3' gives it something, well, deep.
- 16' alone, transposed one octave up as an additional 8', if something quiter than a Rohrflöte is needed, or the Gedackt is too percussive for the intended part. (I nevertheless _love_ percussive Gedackts, they are another nice solo-voice^^)
- Coupled to Pedal. I once had a very quiet, but still noticeable 16'-Reed at a manual I didn't need for the specific piece, so I coupled that to the Pedal, which made the Pedal significant without making it too loud. The walking bass was easy to hear, but still not as loud as the chords and the melody. Depending on the voicing, this might also be suitable for the Quintadena.

When playing full chords, I add a 16' and then play it 1 octave up, which makes the tutti not too bright.

Greetings
Purator

For what it's worth:

I also go for registrations that just sound good to me, whether they would be used in some actual period-type music or not.

A sound that I think is extremely beautiful on the Caen sample set's Recit is:
16' QUINTATON, 8' VIOLA de GAMBA, and the 8' VOIX CELESTE.

When chords are played in the tenor octave (right hand) and a bass note in the bottom octave (left hand), the effect is really wonderful. . . very dreamy and sweet. I think I can "get away" with chords in the lower octaves since all the notes come from separate speakers and thus sound clearly and don't get muddled up at all.

(Even nicer: add the Litomysl's 8' AEOLINE and 8' VOIX CELESTE to the above and use the expression pedal.)

Leo Chris.

I often use the Quintadena 16 in lively left hand parts, that seem to mimic a basso continuo line, like in Bach's BWV 646 (Wo soll ich fliehen hin), or a cello or gamba solo. The Quintadena gives it a special timbre that hints at the sound of a low string instrument. I always add other stops to it: flute 8, flute 4, flute 8+4, or prestant 8.

That fact that one encouters a Quintadena 16 often on North German Baroque organs, indicates it that would have a function in cases where the cantus firmus is in the pedal. And I think a Fagot 16 (also common on these organs) would be used in the same way.

Hi guys,

Many thanks for your responses - much appreciated. I'm going to sit down tonight and try to find some good combinations on the PAB / Zwolle that include the stop based on your suggestions. I'm particularly intrigued by Leo's use of the stop with string stops, so I'm going to try some experiments with the Pos/Rec of the PAB to put some of those combinations together.

I appreciate the suggestion of use in pedal solos which I'll give that a try out too. I'm guessing they offer a light but clear tone with a soft 8' flute which I can imagine would be useful if the manual parts are played on a quiet registration, though I suppose that might render the manual with the Quinataton unavailable, since I've rarely seen them on the pedal.

If anyone has any other thoughts on their use, I'd be pleased to hear them. Barbara Owen gives many examples in her book - too many, really, to know what were commonly used and what were "once in a blue moon" combinations, even with her explanations - so beyond my own experiments where I can say "hmm, that's nice" (or - possibly more often - not), I can't really yet see why they were considered important enough to be included in the number of (pre-Romantic) instruments (relatively speaking) they were.

Nonetheless, I'm grateful to all of you for your input - thank you again. I'll particularly look forward to the day I can afford the Caen set and try out the "ethereal"(?) effect Leo describes - I've tried the demo and it's most impressive.

Adam.

Hi,

i have uploaded two Versions of "Joshua fit the Battle of Jericho" - one with the 16'-Reed I described and one without - they are from different organs, I think you can clearly her what I mean.

http://navis-soft.de/RF/JoshuaGohlis.mp3 - with 16' Reed (Quintadena-like^^)
http://navis-soft.de/RF/JoshuaSommerfeld.mp3 - without it (and a bit too fast...)

Greetings,
Purator

I often use the Quintadena 16 in lively left hand parts, that seem to mimic a basso continuo line, like in Bach's BWV 646 (Wo soll ich fliehen hin), or a cello or gamba solo. The Quintadena gives it a special timbre that hints at the sound of a low string instrument. I always add other stops to it: flute 8, flute 4, flute 8+4, or prestant 8.

I'm guessing that I might have adopted something like this in BWV684 (Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam) without realising that it was good practice (if it is?) - I tend to register the left hand of this piece using a 16' Praestant and a 4' Flute or Octave (with 8' trompete for the Pedal and 8', 4', 2 2/3', 2' for the RH). I presume you would consider this an equivalent situation? I tend to use a Praestant as it's clearer, but I'll pull the piece out and try it with the Quintadena later on if I can.

That fact that one encouters a Quintadena 16 often on North German Baroque organs, indicates it that would have a function in cases where the cantus firmus is in the pedal. And I think a Fagot 16 (also common on these organs) would be used in the same way.

So on this basis, taking Zwolle as a convenient (neo-Baroque) example, one would forgo the use of the Hoofdwek and couple the Quintadena (and a flute or two) to the pedal, playing the manual parts on one or two of the other manuals? Would this have been a common practice - i.e. using manual stops to create a particular pedal timbre, rather than coupling simply to increase tonal strength / volume? I've always known it was and is possible, but was the inconvenience of "losing" a whole division (assuming the registration was unsuitable for manual performance) considered worth it, or even desirable?

i have uploaded two Versions of "Joshua fit the Battle of Jericho" - one with the 16'-Reed I described and one without - they are from different organs, I think you can clearly her what I mean.

Purator, thank you for this - I can hear the difference and certainly admire your playing. Much appreciated

Many thanks,

Adam.

That fact that one encouters a Quintadena 16 often on North German Baroque organs, indicates it that would have a function in cases where the cantus firmus is in the pedal. And I think a Fagot 16 (also common on these organs) would be used in the same way.

So on this basis, taking Zwolle as a convenient (neo-Baroque) example, one would forgo the use of the Hoofdwek and couple the Quintadena (and a flute or two) to the pedal, playing the manual parts on one or two of the other manuals? Would this have been a common practice - i.e. using manual stops to create a particular pedal timbre, rather than coupling simply to increase tonal strength / volume? I've always known it was and is possible, but was the inconvenience of "losing" a whole division (assuming the registration was unsuitable for manual performance) considered worth it, or even desirable?

I think you misunderstood me here. I meant still using the Quintadena or Fagot in the left hand, to provide a basso continuo like bass accompaniment, while the cantus firmus was played in the pedal with an Octave or Trumpet 8 or 4 or something like that. Maybe I should have been clearer. I just meant to say that I think the Quintadena 16 and Fagot 16 were intentionally meant for this kind of use, given the fact that the pedal division of North German Baroque organs (indeed like Zwolle in it's original state) has so many options for cantus firmus registrations on 8, 4 and even 2 feet base.

Indeed I think BWV 684 might be another example of piece suited for this practise.

I think you misunderstood me here. I meant still using the Quintadena or Fagot in the left hand, to provide a basso continuo like bass accompaniment, while the cantus firmus was played in the pedal with an Octave or Trumpet 8 or 4 or something like that.

Indeed - I had misunderstood your meaning. Thank you for making it clear and for sharing your insights - much appreciated. I will look for other musical opportunities to employ this kind of registration.

Adam.

I just wanted to follow up this post with a quick summary of the experiments I did last night and the conclusions I've drawn.

I drew up a list of combinations of 2-4 stops based on the 16 quintadena for the PAB and Zwolle instruments which included representatives of each tone class at each pitch. Working through them, I found:

• that the PAB Quintadena works best in large combinations as a chorus stop and that generally, "solo" registrations not employing at least one 8' alongside it are disparate/ugly. This seems to fit with the nature of the PAB as an intrument.
• that the PAB quintadena's combination with string stops is pleasing only when the string tone is light - the Recit Gamba 8' with the box open (for instance) is too asserive in it's own right to combine with the Quintadena. The Aeoline is diminuitive enough to provide a pleasing, warm timbre.
• that the Zwolle Quintaton is, as one would expect, much better in smaller combinations due to it's lighter tone. Most combinations with 8'/4' stops are useable, with the possible exception of combination with a 4' reed, which is disparate.
• subjectively, the best solo combination tested was that of Hw. Quintadena 16', Vox Humana 8', Nasat 2 2/3', which, with the tremulant, gave a pleasing, penetrative solo registration. More generally, combinations based around the quintadena with an 8' or 4' stop and the Nasat 2 2/3' proved successful as solo registrations.
• As a chorus stop, the quintadena works best where there is a preponderance of 8' tone but little upperwork. In plenum or reasonably full registrations, the quintadena tends to decrease the clarity of the tone, whereas the 16' preaestant, in it's place, adds gravity without a great loss of clarity.
• In all cases, combination with upperwork stops without an additional foundation stop proves disparate/disjointed, unless one plays an octave (or possibly, two octaves) higher than written pitch.

Thank you again to those of you who posted for sharing your thoughts.

Adam.

Hi,

Purator, thank you for this - I can hear the difference and certainly admire your playing. Much appreciated

thanks

Greetings
Purator

Dr. Pykett published an insightful article on Quintadenas:

http://www.pykett.org.uk/hjquintadenas.htm

To paraphrase Samuel L. Clemens (Mark Twain): I never met a quintadena I liked.

Whenever I want to add a 16' stop to a chorus, I want it to blend and not detract from the clarity of the chorus. A very soft flute or a trombone will work nicely.

Solo work? I haven't seemed to need that as yet.

Dr. Pykett published an insightful article on Quintadenas:

http://www.pykett.org.uk/hjquintadenas.htm

Thank you for this - I've read the article and found it very interesting.

To paraphrase Samuel L. Clemens (Mark Twain): I never met a quintadena I liked.

I haven't been so unlucky, but lol

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

Adam.