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Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

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GLMounk

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostWed Oct 17, 2012 4:05 pm

The music doesn't seem to fit the setting (building) IMHO.
Glen
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Kvintadena

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostTue Nov 06, 2012 8:52 am

I think this is a said example of when the church and some preasts are conservatory and without any knowledge concerning the music. You are the musician, if you find the piece appropriate for the sunday theme, of course you should play it. Bach always suits!

play!
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stephenzzz

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostSat Dec 21, 2013 12:32 pm

for 3 years, I replaced the organist at the local catholic mass in a paris suburb during August, and without exception, the postlude was always full "Anches" = "reeds" including the toccata in D.

However if you want loud prelude, during mass and postlude, go to the cathedral-basilica of Saint-Denis, a few miles to the north of Paris, on the fabulous Cavaillé-Coll organ, where Pierre Pincemaille improvises to everyones' wonder and joy with all stops out for the 10:00 Sunday Mass.
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krummyhorn

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostSat Dec 21, 2013 3:39 pm

I've been playing organ in the Catholic Church for over 30 years and am currently at a Cathedral in Upstate New York (USA). While a great deal of Bach's music is religious in nature - making it very fitting for the Catholic Liturgy, there are a number of "secular" pieces he wrote that aren't quite as fitting. His (English translated) "Sheep May Safely Graze" is an example of a secular piece that probably should never have been permitted during a Mass - as this piece was part of his Hunting Cantata. Eschatological and Theological issues aside, many "Christian" meanings and texts have been added in various languages making it "suitable" in one regard - hence the reason it gets performed often in the Church.

To the best of my knowledge, the Toccata and Fugue to which you refer is NOT one of his religious pieces - and as a result, I would shy away from using it as a prelude. (A prelude does NOT have to always be quite and meditative, although that has become an accepted "norm.") Once the priest/deacon says "Mass is ended," that is it - it is over. The so-called "Recessional Hymn" does not exist in any document on Liturgy - although it is standard, common practice in nearly all Catholic Churches in the USA. Therefore it would be acceptable to play it as a postlude in that regard.

With that being said - given the popularity and familiarity of the piece to even non-classical fans of music and it's "association" with the secular world - I would probably shy away from using it even as a postlude. Then again, some may believe that it would present an opportunity (given the assumption some people would ask) to explain the Church's teaching on music and liturgy. For organists who view their role within the Church as a ministry - this can provide a great excuse to begin a dialogue. For those who are more-or-less there just for the love of the music, this may be a theological debate you'd rather not start...so consider the ramifications carefully before deciding! As for me for now, I keep it as a concert piece - even though I am willing to engage in dialogue - but who knows? Maybe in the future I'll be a but more "daring" as I was in my teens and twenty-somethings!
Ernie

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timhowarduk

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostTue Dec 24, 2013 5:56 am

stephenzzz wrote:Maybe in the future I'll be a but more "daring" as I was in my teens and twenty-somethings!

Funnily enough I last played this piece in church when I was in my teens....that might be for a reason!
As to the original question, I think it's a wider issue (as others have said) - it seems that most churches of any denomination prefer quieter music before services, and blow-your-socks-off pieces afterwards. (I tend to be a little more 'reckless' before weddings!)
I think I would shy away from playing that piece before services, it somehow 'feels' more like a concert piece to me. I might consider playing the fugue without the prelude after a service.

I'm enjoying this thread, it's interesting seeing people attempting to put into words the though processes we all go through when selecting prelude and postlude music...!
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Henrius

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostTue Dec 24, 2013 2:41 pm

I sing in a Catholic church choir. Our organist plays more meditative music for the prelude, but anything goes for the postlude. She has played plenty of Bach and get complimented on it even by the priests. The average parishioner doesn't have a clue that Bach was Lutheran.

This piece is the most atypical of all Bach's repertoire. Many people think Bach did not write it.
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StephG

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 5:55 pm

I have played it in a Congregational church as both a prelude and a postlude. No one ever complained.
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joeroberts

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 7:23 pm

Aw heck...........give it a try......
The worse you could suffer is.......Excommunication........lol......
Just kidding......It's something I would like to hear or play myself.....
The Church is pretty liberal these days......mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.....
Joe....:D
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kaspencer

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostFri Jan 10, 2014 7:28 pm

I think this is a sensitive question, as so often is the choice of music for the pre-service, processional, communion and recessional. I cannot really play the D minor T&F sufficiently well for a service, but if I could, the only point in which I would even consider it would be for the recessional.

As a matter of interest (and fun), we recently lost our priest, who went from Wiltshire (where I am) up to Ilkley in Yorkshire. On her last service I was so sorely tempted to play her out on the recessional to "On Ilkley Moor Ba'h T'aat" but I lost my nerve and didn't do it. When I mentioned this to some of the choir and a few of the congregation afterwards, they all said, to a man, that it would have gone down very well!

So, who can tell eh!

Ken
Kenneth Spencer
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profeluisegarcia

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostSat Jan 11, 2014 1:49 am

Here in Colombia the matter runs in a contradictory mood:
a. The most informed parishioners demand D minor sheet music be buried 200 years¡
b. Most common parishioners demand it to be played almost every sunday after service :?
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richardkfitzgerald

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Re: Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

PostTue May 06, 2014 9:40 pm

Hi, Jim. I say 'go for it'. It's a wonderful piece, and was a wonderful piece for hundreds of years before Cecil B. Demille used it in Hollywood! Nevermind it's Halloween associations. It is funny, though, how people react to that being played in church. Let us know how it goes!

Cheers,
Richard
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