Bach, and his Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at Mass

I'm curious, I'm a substitute organist at a city Catholic church at which, for years, the congregation hasn't heard the great classics of Bach, French composers and the like. While I'm not a professional, I've gained a fair degree of competence and have been playing some Bach preludes/fugues, Orgelbuchlein pieces, and some French composers (a few Vierne 24 pieces, etc) at Mass as pre-Mass preludes, recessionals, offertory and comunion pieces. We have a fairly hefty pipe organ that can handle these composers.

Aside from the fact that I"ve had one or two people have commented on my perhaps playing too much Bach at a Catholic church (which I think is quite odd, though many others have said they love it), I'd like to know everyone's opinion on one piece--Bach's Toccata (and Fugue) in D Minor.

Would you play the Toccata in D Minor as a pre-Mass prelude? Or, does it have such a dark connotation ever since Walt Disney and Fantasia that it would be viewed as almost "sacreligious" to play it at Mass??

Would people think I'm nuts?

What about any loud, "tutti" prelude at Mass?

Jim

Of course. Just change the final D minor chord to D Major. Darkness into light - let the mass begin. ?

Since I'm neither a Catholic, nor a good enough organist to attempt it myself, I'm probably not qualified to judge. However, I'd be uneasy about it though I can't quite put my finger on why.

Nick

Would you play the Toccata in D Minor as a pre-Mass prelude? Or, does it have such a dark connotation ever since Walt Disney and Fantasia that it would be viewed as almost "sacreligious" to play it at Mass?? Would people think I was nuts?

Though I was myself raised in the Catholic church, I do not see any issue play Lutherian Bach music in a church. After all, in my home country of France, you commonly hear "Jesus of my joy desiring" be played during weddings...

But, as far as the toccata is concerned, I'm feeling a bit more uncomfortable, probably because this wonderful piece is basically a profane one.

Just my two cents.

I also play every week for Mass in a Catholic Church and I agree that playing Bach in Catholic liturgy is perfectly valid. In fact, despite its Protestant leanings, much of the liturgy in the Lutheran Church at that time was similar to the Roman Rite. It's tempting to think of the Lutherans as being closer to the non-Conformist movement but that isn't the case.

As for BWV565, I'd steer clear of such a work before Mass. I usually try to play something more contemplative, saving the drama for the end.

Difficult to assess how any piece would be perceived in a congregation I don't know. Personally I wouldn't hesitate to play this lovely 'modern' version by J.S. Kreuzpointner in my (protestant) church.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTSwcalVncU

I think I would be excommunicated....HAHHA

I would agree about playing it at the end of the service, and who knows maybe people will stick around longer, rather than rushing out as quick as possible. I think its just too loud and complex of a piece for people who are generally praying or doing some spiritual contemplation. You want to facilitate people's worship, and help them prepare for mass. I used to do a lot of quiet pieces, and toss in contemporary worship pieces. We had visitors from a Catholic Bible College/Monastery, and they were very impressed that I was playing contemporary worship pieces on a pipe organ. It was the last thing they expected, but they were exceptional grateful that I did.
Glen

Interesting. I get a sense that "loud" pieces as preludes at Mass not as acceptable?

I certainly understand not playing the Toccata in D Minor (that's why I asked-was curious if I was completely off base), but I don't see a problem much with a bigger prelude at the beginning of Mass rather than softer, contemplative.

An interesting thought here - I play at a large Catholic church here in the UK (although I myself am not a Catholic) - my experience is that 10 minutes before Mass the church is virtually deserted, whereas by the time the bell goes, there are 300+ members in the congregation. Not sure anyone would hear even the Toccata, short though it is.

I am conscious that the French Catholic tradition, with its heavy reliance on the organ, is completely different. YouTube has some splendid improvisations by Olivier Latry, and his introits are pretty exuberant!! So your feeling about a "larger" prelude would be in keeping here.

A propos the "is Bach suitable for the Catholic liturgy" idea - I am a Christian full stop. Bach is, to my mind, the greatest Christian composer who has lived so far, and the idea of restricting him on a denominational basis is perfectly horrible. My take on music in church is that it should quite simply be the very best that is available. QED: JSB!

Ian

Good grief! From what I understand from my Jewish friends, they play plenty of Bach in the Synagogue! How do people get hung up on such things?

I certainly understand not playing the Toccata in D Minor (that's why I asked-was curious if I was completely off base), but I don't see a problem much with a bigger prelude at the beginning of Mass rather than softer, contemplative.

I am conscious that the French Catholic tradition, with its heavy reliance on the organ, is completely different. YouTube has some splendid improvisations by Olivier Latry, and his introits are pretty exuberant!! So your feeling about a "larger" prelude would be in keeping here.

Are these preludes in place of an Introit hymn? I think there's a difference between playing in the clergy at the start of Mass and covering the action of censing the altar etc. vs playing as the congregation arrives before Mass.

I agree that many Catholics don't arrive until after Mass starts, but for those that do arrive early I can imagine a substantial and loud organ prelude is not conducive towards prayer. Once Mass starts, that's completely different. Look at the way Pope Benedict XVI was welcomed into Westminster Cathedral when he visited the UK.

Bach is, to my mind, the greatest Christian composer who has lived so far, and the idea of restricting him on a denominational basis is perfectly horrible. My take on music in church is that it should quite simply be the very best that is available. QED: JSB!

Ah, William Byrd for me. I'm with Marcus on the quiet before the service starts; people arrive early for a reason, and it's either to chat noisily to the rest of the old ladies (the Anglican way), or to be quiet and reflective (the Catholic way). I'm no longer a Catholic (!), but back when I was supposed to be, one church (an enclosed convent in Cornwall) I played for used to have 3 minutes of absolute silence before the service began; the priest would actually lock the doors, no latecomers allowed. After major services, e.g. Christmas and Easter, not only would he lock the doors but he wouldn't let anyone out until they'd had a drink with him...

Here In Colombia playing this work at the end of a celebration is the best way to attract new people to the organ music
(although some seniors -and even the organist- may feel tired of listening it).

It does seem a bit odd to play the Toccata at Mass, even as a postlude, as evidenced in this Youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2QrVLiMF4o

I don't have any problem occasionally playing a loud prelude at Mass, though.