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When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

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ernst

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When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 9:50 pm

Dear forum members,

By lack of proper musical education and absence of just any teacher here, I'm at a loss at when to "breathe" - shortly interrupt the flow of melody - in Baroque organ music. Of course you have to make short interruptions in the connected melody line - and in the accompaniment as well - which I have called "breathe" here, like you would do with singing or flute playing. I know it must be done but I don't know when. Are there rules that apply to this - if so would you please be so kind as to share your knowledge?

Many thanks,
Ernst

PS: I'm waiting for a few books about playing baroque, but don't know yet how helpful these are.
Last edited by ernst on Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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deWaverley

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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 2:36 am

Hello Ernst,

I find that one of the great joys of Baroque music is that the notes of a line (particularly running passages) can be grouped in any one of a dozen different ways to give subtley different, but equally valid results. One day you might group one way, and the next you might suddenly see another option which brings new life to the piece. So I would always keep trying new groupings to see which suits you/your view of the piece best.

Obviously lines based on chorale melodies etc should be phrased according to the words they are based upon, to be as the composer intended.

Music, especially organ playing, is endlessly fascinating, isn't it? 8)
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ernst

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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 9:39 am

Hello de Waverly,

Well, I never looked at it that liberally.... :) but it sounds fun. And yes, for the chorals that's obvious.
One question though: I vaguely remember o sort of rule (?) that there should be a brief break in the melody line just before the ultimate, final note. In recordings I hear organists who do that and other who don't.... That sounds a bit like your comment. :)

Organ playing (sort of) and listening to music actually has become my greatest (and dearest) free time occupation!
Thanks for your help.

Ernst
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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 12:46 pm

Well the Baroque period was very much a time when the performer was also improviser, and nothing was set in stone. Of course they had the advantage of knowing the boundaries of what was acceptable within the style, which may be less natural to us. But I think the goal is to give the music a feel that it is being created on the spot, so constantly rethinking the note groupings is a good policy towards that end.

To quote Robert Donnington in "Baroque Music, Style and Performance":

One of the most striking features which gives its characteristic quality to Baroque music is the freedom it grants to the performer in improvising the greater part of the expression as he goes along, and even quite a substantial part of the notes. Nothing is regarded as entirely fixed. Everything is just that much open to the mood of the moment. It is possible to be inconsistent, wayward, imaginitive and unpredictable, and if you are sufficiently in touch with your piece, no harm need come of it, but rather all the enjoyment of a spontaneous liberty within bounds. [...]

Nevertheless, there is the responsibility attaching to this freedom. It is necessary to know the style, and to respect the conventions which set outer boundaries to it. The secret of baroque musicianship is imagination and fantasy within the boundaries of style.


I realise it is this "style" that you are asking about, but I thought it was worth pointing out that you have more freedom than you might think as the performer of this sort of music.

Also, don't forget to always "breathe" before syncopated notes, and (on the organ) to leave space before important notes which need to be emphasised.

I agree, the challenge of organ playing can easily become an all-consuming passion. I can't believe there are many skills on earth more demanding on the brain! . :?
Last edited by deWaverley on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ernst

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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 5:20 pm

Thanks for that, quite enlightening. In my education (romantic piano music) I was taught to fully respect every note and indication of the composer. Also, I have seen (but not read in detail - that's beyond me) violent discussions in forums (not specifically HW) about just any detail in the Bach scores which were delivered to us only in copies....
But it's certainly true that improvisation was a core requirement for baroque musicians (basso continuo) and organists especially. There are also abundant examples of composers who have incorporated or transcribed music of other composers in their own works, including Bach. So that underlines the freedom composers felt at that time to use or modify scores as they felt appropriate. These days that's a lot different!

Thanks for your help!
Ernst
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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 7:30 pm

Hi Ernst.

I would suggest that you do an internet search on "The Ordinary Touch" which is appropriate for baroque organ music. This is the first page I came across: http://www.organduo.lt/1/category/ordin ... uch/1.html

I think you may find some interesting things here.

Michael
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ernst

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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 8:55 pm

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the tip. I do have read a lot about the Ordinary Touch and I'm trying to apply it. It's not easy after a life of playing legato.

Ernst
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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostMon Jan 28, 2013 3:34 pm

If you are looking for a teacher, Forum member Adri has offered organ lessons over the internet, where you could send him what you have rehearsed and he will then give comments. I'm not sure if he still is doing this and if the has room for more students, but you may want to contact him.
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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostMon Jan 28, 2013 4:48 pm

Sander,

I helpful suggestion - I might try this! Many thanks.

Ernst
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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostThu Jan 31, 2013 7:31 am

Ernst:

Yes, I am available to do virtual teaching, as we are playing virtual organs.You can email me even a virtual file, i.e. a midi-file, which I can play back here, although mp3's are fine as well.

Then you get my critique in written form, or if you wish, over the phone. I live on the US East Coast, so that's my time zone.

YouTube is both a great and terrible place, because there are both fine performances of organ music and horrible ones; so I will need to guide you there in the proper direction. I am great believer in LRPA:

1. L = Listening- should come first - gets you familiar with the piece. Of course me must use caution while listening, as some performances are just plain wrong.

2. R= Reading the score, while listening, or if you can hear it in your head while reading it, but at any rate, understanding the music by studying the score. Also, we must use caution that we have an accurate (or the best possible) edition of the music (e.g. an English Voluntary of the 18th century with pedal lines is a bad edition).

3. P = Playing it; this comes last, unless you are already are so well versed, have an easy enough piece in front of you, or are so thoroughly familiar with the composer's style, that you might just as well play this new piece, as it seems so familiar and similar to whatever else he/she or their contemporaries composed.

4. A = Art of Registration. With Hauptwerk, we can often match the music to the organ. Historical organs can teach us directly how to approach the music. It will be good to know which sample sets you have. This is very important for the art of registration. Balance of sound is important. We also need to always make historically informed decisions and learn to adjust that to organs that are different. I believe that the organ determines what types/styles of music it can handle and what not. Forcing a piece of music unto an organ for which it is really not suited strikes me as foolish (and yet happens all too often). The greatness of Hauptwerk is that we do have choices of organs and is actually thus a great learning and discovery tool as well!

Enough said! Hope you come onboard, virtually! :D
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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostThu Jan 31, 2013 11:33 pm

Many thanks Adri, I've sent you a PM.
Ernst
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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostFri Feb 01, 2013 7:43 am

Hello Ernest:
Given my lack of formal education training opportunities around in music and organ, I was self-bad-taught, so my rule of thumb in playing my preferred baroque music -mostly chorals- was to sing them and connect my playing to my breath.
Is it Ok?
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Re: When to "breathe" in (German) baroque music

PostFri Feb 01, 2013 10:33 am

Hola Luis,

To me it sounds like a very good idea - I'm going to try it - seems so obvious! So it depends on your own breathing qualities!
Am I correct that you live on an altitude of about 2,100m? I went several times in Peru into the mountains to around these altitudes (and much higher), and that literally takes some of your breath. In that case your choral performances should be really special! :D

Ernst

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