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Sharps and thumbs

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1961TC4ME

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Sharps and thumbs

PostThu Nov 14, 2013 12:38 am

Hello all,

I'm interested in hearing some advice on this subject. First off, I'm a total rookie when it comes to organ playing, and although at one time I had a good teacher and I've retained some good advice, I'm now on my own. I'm not one of those that can sit down with a new piece, look it over, go "o.k." and just start playing it (maybe some day! :D ). Every new piece requires me to work slowly, work out the fingering (on the advice of my past tutor), number the fingering above the notes, and then practice it the same way until I have things down.

On certain new pieces I seem to inevitably run into that certain part that after trying a few different ways of fingering, it seems that using my thumb on a sharp makes the most sense and makes it best in moving on smoothly to the next part. What makes this the most awkward feeling for me though is when the sharp seemingly requiring a thumb is repeated and is followed by either progressing upwards or downwards natural keys (depending on if it's right or left hand) which also forces me to move my hand forward considerably in order to play those following natural keys. Doing so also requires that I end up playing the progressing natural keys between the sharp keys vs. hitting the naturals lower in their more desired spots. I've read using your thumbs on sharps is a no-no and is to be avoided, others on the subject seem to be o.k. with the idea. I've watched videos online of the masters and I do see some thumb use on sharps here and there, but overall not much at all and the hand movement and avoiding thumbs on sharps seems to be so effortless for them.

And you say?

Thanks,

Marc
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engrssc

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Re: Sharps and thumbs

PostThu Nov 14, 2013 3:38 am

Thumbs really don't cooperate for sharp playing. I tried it after reading your post. It won't and probably never will work for me. My thumbs are used however, but for naturals. Also pushing thumb pistons and maybe standing out on a roadway suggesting someone stop and give me a lift. :oops:

Rgds,
Ed
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Sharps and thumbs

PostThu Nov 14, 2013 11:37 am

engrssc wrote: and maybe standing out on a roadway suggesting someone stop and give me a lift. :oops:

Rgds,
Ed


Ha! I was going to ask if there's any "rule of thumb." :wink:

Marc
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petervdzwaag

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Re: Sharps and thumbs

PostThu Nov 14, 2013 4:08 pm

It depends on which style you're playing and whether you want to play legato or not.
In short:
If you're playing a baroque piece you should avoid using your thumb and little finger on black keys. In this style you aren't playing legato anyway, so using the same finger for two consecutive notes is not a problem and avoids many troubles.
If you're playing a more recent piece, which demands legato touch, using your thumb on black keys is no problem at all and even necessary.
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Sharps and thumbs

PostThu Nov 14, 2013 4:19 pm

Hello petervdzwaag,

The piece in particular I'm working on right now is "Psalm 19" by Marcello, I've found some spots along the way where it seems the only way is to use my right thumb on the C# and F# in particular and to a lesser extend also with my left thumb, same notes. It seems to be working for me so far but at the same time is a bit awkward. As I also mention it forces me to play progressive upwards or downwards naturals in-between the natural and the sharp where the space between the keys is pretty tight. Perhaps you or someone else could advise some on this piece if you are familiar with it? Here's the first page of the piece. https://docs.google.com/viewer?attid=0. ... er=1&w=791

Thanks,

Marc
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petervdzwaag

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Re: Sharps and thumbs

PostSat Nov 16, 2013 1:15 pm

Hi Marc,

Well, in this piece by Marcello you don't have to play legato so try to use the same finger twice. That way you can avoid using your thumbs. If you still have problems you can occasionally use your thumb. Furthermore, playing with your fingers in between black keys isn't necessarily bad. If you play more pianistic pieces it's even unavoidable and younger organs are even built to accomodate this. On older historical organs, however, you may find it is simply impossible to put a finger in between black keys.

In you're really interested in this you could read a book about historical fingering (like Laukvik: Historical Performance Practice in Organ Playing).
Basically, it comes down to this:
R.h. upwards: 3-4-3-4-3-4 etc.
R.h. downwards: 3-2-3-2-3 etc.
L.h. upwards: 2-1-2-1-2-1 etc.
L.h. downwards: 2-3-2-3-2-3 etc.
Parallel thirds: 2/4 - 2/4 - 2/4 etc.
Parallel sixths: 1/5 - 1/5 - 1/5 etc.
Just try to play some scales with this. It takes some time though to master this.
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cvmoreau

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Re: Sharps and thumbs

PostSun Nov 17, 2013 5:36 pm

I find this thread most interesting, because I've never heard that you shouldn't use the thumb on sharps and have always done so. Out of curiosity, I just watched several of Rob Stefanussen's videos and I see that he frequently uses his thumbs on the sharps. I consider him to be a master organist, and if he can do it, so can I! :lol:

-Chris
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Sharps and thumbs

PostSun Nov 17, 2013 8:45 pm

Hello Chris and thank you, petervdzwaag for your advice, I will keep your suggestions in mind and give them a try the very next time I have a chance to sit down at the console and continue to work on this piece. I too have read thumbs and also pinkys are a no-no on sharps, but that certain piece comes along and I don't have a clue how to avoid the thumbs and sharps in particular. I too have watched countless videos online and I do see some thumb useage here and there.

I used to ask my tutor if there was a certain or correct way to do the fingering, or better yet I would ask him how he knew when he was playing the right way. He would just always stress and encourag me to work out the fingering first, if there was a measure or two that was difficult he would tell me to try it a few different ways and work it out that best suited and felt the most comfortable to me, but in the end he said eveyone may do it a little differently. What he said mattered most was once I had it worked it out that I did it the same every time. What perhaps has frustrated me most with this particular piece (see my post above for the first page) is it's pretty fast and requires you to make some moves up and down that I'm just probably not quick enough to do yet, and instead of using the correct finger, I'm over-thinking things and instead of making a quick move with my entire hand to get the right finger on the next note, I'm instead trying to compensate by using with my thumbs instead as they are the closest to the next keys.

I guess I just need to get a bit quicker on the draw! I think I'll go watch a few more Clint Eastwood westerns! :wink:

Marc

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