What are your favorite Temperaments and Why?

I just got Hauptwerk Advanced running a couple of months ago, and am venturing into the world of alternate temperaments for my Baroque music. Did not know there were so many variants of Meantone and Well-tempered. It sure is neat to hear other ones besides the omnipresent Equal!

What are your favorite temperaments and why? I guess the closer to Just one gets, the fewer keys one can play in. I definitely hear the "wolf" in some keys in quarter comma meantone. To tell you the truth, "pure" thirds don't seem to sound much better to my ear.

So what are some good temperaments to try for things like Bach, Buxtehude, Krebs and Bruhns? I also want to play from Frescobaldi occasionally.

You might enjoy the Lehmann-Bach Temperament, which can be downloaded for Hauptwerk at http://www.pipeloops.com/information.ph ... 9158de29b1

It's based on a 1/6-comma Meantone, with some smoothing to enable play in all keys. I use this by preference for any music after the Baroque, and for any Organ which comes with "Equal Temperament" as its default.

Other Temperaments are best for special purposes. Pythagorean (with all Pure Fifths) is great for Midieval and some early Renaissance Music (back when the Major Third was considered a Dissonance... because it was). For most Renaissance Music and early Baroque, I prefer the classic 1/4-Comma Meantone... pure Major Thirds in all playable keys. This goes best with a lightly-voiced Organ such as the Smecno, also for a Harpsichord such as the Mietke or the Ruckers from Sonus Paradisi.

For Late Baroque, you will need a Temperament playable in all Keys, but one which still gives each Key a distinctive flavour. There is a wide choice of possibilities here, but I find the Lehmann-Bach Temperament to be quite generally satisfactory.

For the Modern Ear, Pure Thirds are an acquired taste. Stick with it, on lovely Music such as by Frescobaldi, lightly voiced, and it will speak to you.

Enjoy!

Mine would be Chaumont. You can aquire it here: http://www.inspiredacoustics.com/en/downloads/trials

This temperament is 1/5 comma meantone with a lowered E-flat so D-sharp is usable as well. That way you can play pieces in e-minor.

Mine would be Chaumont. You can aquire it here: http://www.inspiredacoustics.com/en/downloads/trials

This temperament is 1/5 comma meantone with a lowered E-flat so D-sharp is usable as well. That way you can play pieces in e-minor.

Thanks. It is news to me that other temperaments can be added to Hauptwerk. How is this done? I looked on the link you mentioned and did not see any temperaments, just organ samples.

You might enjoy the Lehmann-Bach Temperament, which can be downloaded for Hauptwerk at http://www.pipeloops.com/information.ph ... 9158de29b1

It's based on a 1/6-comma Meantone, with some smoothing to enable play in all keys. I use this by preference for any music after the Baroque, and for any Organ which comes with "Equal Temperament" as its default.

Other Temperaments are best for special purposes. Pythagorean (with all Pure Fifths) is great for Midieval and some early Renaissance Music (back when the Major Third was considered a Dissonance... because it was). For most Renaissance Music and early Baroque, I prefer the classic 1/4-Comma Meantone... pure Major Thirds in all playable keys. This goes best with a lightly-voiced Organ such as the Smecno, also for a Harpsichord such as the Mietke or the Ruckers from Sonus Paradisi.

For Late Baroque, you will need a Temperament playable in all Keys, but one which still gives each Key a distinctive flavour. There is a wide choice of possibilities here, but I find the Lehmann-Bach Temperament to be quite generally satisfactory.

For the Modern Ear, Pure Thirds are an acquired taste. Stick with it, on lovely Music such as by Frescobaldi, lightly voiced, and it will speak to you.

Enjoy!

Thanks for the info. I will try the Lehman temperament, which I'd read snippets about before. He makes a good case for this being Bach's preferred temperament. But from what I have read, unlike harpsichords, organs of Bach's day were tuned in quarter-comma meantone and were not easily changed.

I wish there were an explanation somewhere of the goals of all the temperaments. In other words, what does each really seek to accomplish? I assume some seek purer fifths at the expense of thirds, and some seek the opposite.

So the dividing line between early and late Baroque is when for you? Bach's clavecin music was written in more diverse keys than his organ music. Maybe this is the clue that Bach's music for harpsichord demanded more tempering than his organ music.

Mine would be Chaumont. You can aquire it here: http://www.inspiredacoustics.com/en/downloads/trials

Thanks. It is news to me that other temperaments can be added to Hauptwerk. How is this done? I looked on the link you mentioned and did not see any temperaments, just organ samples.

At the link. push the button labeled "Extensions". Then you can download a couple of RAR files containing Temperaments, including two versions of the Chaumont. You install into Hauptwerk just like with a new Sample Set... Hauptwerk/Files/Install, then show Hauptwerk where to find the archive file to install. Then it asks you which components (in this case, Temperaments) you wish to install.

Once they are installed, they can be accessed from whichever Organ Sample Set is currently playing.

Thanks for the info. I will try the Lehman temperament, which I'd read snippets about before. He makes a good case for this being Bach's preferred temperament. But from what I have read, unlike harpsichords, organs of Bach's day were tuned in quarter-comma meantone and were not easily changed.

Right. I accept that the Lehmann temperament is an acceptable member of the class of Temperaments used on Harpsichords in Bach's day. Functionally, as good as any and makes more sense than many. For Organs, it allows playing in keys that would be very stressed in 1/4-comma Meantone. It functions as what they called a "circulating temperament", and could be called "Well-Tempered". Certainly no Organ (until the present era) was ever actually tuned exactly like this, but it is the sort of thing Organ Builders were looking for in going beyond the limitations of Meantone. Again, functionally as good as any and makes more sense than many.

I wish there were an explanation somewhere of the goals of all the temperaments. In other words, what does each really seek to accomplish? I assume some seek purer fifths at the expense of thirds, and some seek the opposite.

That's exactly right. The Medieval aesthetic called for pure fifths at any cost. In the Renaissance, there was a revolution in favour of pure thirds. Since then we have had a slow but steady progression back to pure fifths again. The Mean-Tone Tunings were gradually rendered less extreme (sacrificing the Thirds a little bit to partially restore the Fifths), going from 1/4 Comma to 1/5 to 1/6 and so forth. By the time they reached 1/12 Comma Meantone, that's the same as Equal Temperament! Thirds are compromised quite a bit (but sound good on a Grand Piano because the sharp Thirds help add brilliance to the tone, which otherwise cannot compare with a good Harpsichord.

On modern Grand Pianos, the Octave itself is stretched, to compensate for the inharmonicity of the Strings, which are very thick and heavy compared to the Harpsichord. This has the side benefit of correcting the (still-slightly-flat) Fifths to the point that they can be absolutely Pure!

For one of my Sampled Pianos, I tune Pure Fifths all the way from top to bottom (letting the Octaves stretch accordingly to fit) and it does sound delightful!

So the dividing line between early and late Baroque is when for you? Bach's clavecin music was written in more diverse keys than his organ music. Maybe this is the clue that Bach's music for harpsichord demanded more tempering than his organ music.

Exactly! The usual Mean-Tone today allows for C# but not Db, Eb but not D#, F# but not Gb, G# but not Ab, and Bb but not A#. In Bach's Day, a string or two would be re-tuned just before playing any piece that required a different accidental. Otherwise, maybe one bad accidental can be tolerated but probably not two. For music that uses more than that, ie Flats beyond Eb or Sharps beyond G#, some compromise of the Tuning is required... such as a modified Mean Tone, or the Lehmann Tuning.

Ideally, playable in all keys but all keys with a distinct flavour. This was still the Standard on PianoFortes in the day of both Mozart and Beethoven. Only slowly through the 19th Century did the idea of Equal Temperament take hold for the Piano. And other than the Piano, perhaps it never really did.

On modern Grand Pianos, the Octave itself is stretched, to compensate for the inharmonicity of the Strings, which are very thick and heavy compared to the Harpsichord. This has the side benefit of correcting the (still-slightly-flat) Fifths to the point that they can be absolutely Pure!

Exactly! The usual Mean-Tone today allows for C# but not Db, Eb but not D#, F# but not Gb, G# but not Ab, and Bb but not A#. In Bach's Day, a string or two would be re-tuned just before playing any piece that required a different accidental. Otherwise, maybe one bad accidental can be tolerated but probably not two. For music that uses more than that, ie Flats beyond Eb or Sharps beyond G#, some compromise of the Tuning is required... such as a modified Mean Tone, or the Lehmann Tuning.

Ideally, playable in all keys but all keys with a distinct flavour. This was still the Standard on PianoFortes in the day of both Mozart and Beethoven. Only slowly through the 19th Century did the idea of Equal Temperament take hold for the Piano. And other than the Piano, perhaps it never really did.[/quote]

Thanks for this voluminous reply, which begs even more questions. Temperament is a matter of interest to me, because it is strange how things that sounded normal to the ear in the past sound strange to us now. Equal has been our "new normal" all of our lives. It must be more common to Europeans, who sometimes frequent churches with historical organs tuned in meantone.

Tonight I put my samples on quarter comma meantone and played WF Bach's fugue in F minor( 4 flats.) The piece also has a good bit of accidentals. It was really painful to my ears. I cannot imagine that it would not be painful to 18th century ears as well. I just can't believe that listeners processed music so differently.

I switched to Werkmeister III for no good reason, and the fugue sounded a lot better. There was a time about 35 years ago I even remember new organs being built in Werkmeister III. That must have been the height of the Neobaroque movement.

Pure thirds are a strange phenomenon to our modern ears. Like you say, given the right music, perhaps I will get accustomed to and appreciate them.

What is strange to me is the number of temperaments out there. Really, all there is to temperament is how many times you divide the common and which notes you stretch by that comma division. (Am I not right?) Yet somehow everyone wants his name on a temperament. I understand what you are saying about 12th comma meantone being the same as equal. But what are the plethora of temperaments labelled "Well-Tempered?" How do they differ from the various slice-and-dice-the-comma meantone tunings?

Funny you mention the sampled piano. I have been searching forever in vain for fortepiano samples to play Mozart and Haydn. If you know where I can buy any, let me know.

I can scarcely imagine stretching octaves on a piano enough to accommodate the whole comma. I cannot believe the beats between octaves do not bother you. That is the first thing that bothers me when I play out of tune pianos.

Finally, I am imagining temperaments and the lack thereof in string playing. It would seem to me if a string quartet were playing, they could intone pure intervals. But the minute an organ, harpsichord, or piano is added, they must temper their intervals to intone with the keyboard instrument. Am I wrong here?

Any suggestions for literature about the subject, I would appreciate it. You seem to know more than just about anyone about the subject.

Tonight I put my samples on quarter comma meantone and played WF Bach's fugue in F minor( 4 flats.) It was really painful to my ears.

F-Minor (with flats on B,E,A,and D) sounds truly horrid on a Meantone Tuning with G# instead of Ab, and C# instead of Db. Either the piece was meant for Harpsichord and could be tuned appropriately, or it was meant for an Organ tuned to be playable in all keys. WF Bach was of course the next generation after JSBach, so Meantone was already much less in fashion by then.

But what are the plethora of temperaments labelled "Well-Tempered?" How do they differ from the various slice-and-dice-the-comma meantone tunings?

They differ only in the details. A "Regular" Temperament has all fifths the same size (except for one possible Wolf-fifth). Examples are Pythagorean, Mean-Tone, and Equal. These differ only on one dimension... the exact size chosen for the Fifth. The "Irregular" Temperaments are all over the map. Typically they fudge the accidentals to try and make them fit in better. Or they use various sizes of Fifths to allow better results for preferred keys and lesser (but still tolerable) results for other keys. Examples are all those with somebody's name on it.

Funny you mention the sampled piano. I have been searching forever in vain for fortepiano samples to play Mozart and Haydn. If you know where I can buy any, let me know.

I'll send you a Private Message on this. (They do exist and are quite fine.)

I can scarcely imagine stretching octaves on a piano enough to accommodate the whole comma. I cannot believe the beats between octaves do not bother you. That is the first thing that bothers me when I play out of tune pianos.

Actually, the human ear prefers stretched octaves on a Grand Piano. True Octaves always sound flat, especially near the top of the Keyboard.

Finally, I am imagining temperaments and the lack thereof in string playing. It would seem to me if a string quartet were playing, they could intone pure intervals. But the minute an organ, harpsichord, or piano is added, they must temper their intervals to intone with the keyboard instrument. Am I wrong here?

Absolutely right. The Strings always tend toward pure fifths, but can temper as needed for the musical environment. Matching a Grand Piano would require much more compromise than matching a well-tuned Harpsichord (with its pure Octaves, and ability to tune with a given Key structure in mind).

Any suggestions for literature about the subject, I would appreciate it. You seem to know more than just about anyone about the subject.

I'd recommend the book "Tuning and Temperament" by Barbour, available for $11 on Amazon. Enjoy!

F-Minor (with flats on B,E,A,and D) sounds truly horrid on a Meantone Tuning with G# instead of Ab, and C# instead of Db. Either the piece was meant for Harpsichord and could be tuned appropriately, or it was meant for an Organ tuned to be playable in all keys. WF Bach was of course the next generation after JSBach, so Meantone was already much less in fashion by then.

They differ only in the details. A "Regular" Temperament has all fifths the same size (except for one possible Wolf-fifth). Examples are Pythagorean, Mean-Tone, and Equal. These differ only on one dimension... the exact size chosen for the Fifth. The "Irregular" Temperaments are all over the map. Typically they fudge the accidentals to try and make them fit in better. Or they use various sizes of Fifths to allow better results for preferred keys and lesser (but still tolerable) results for other keys. Examples are all those with somebody's name on it.

I'd recommend the book "Tuning and Temperament" by Barbour, available for $11 on Amazon. Enjoy!

OK, only one more quick question. In my stock Hauptwerk temperaments, there is a fifth-comma meantone and a fifth-comma well tempered. Both apparently slice the comma differetnly. Is the difference just that the Meantone detunes the fifths equally, while the well-tempered detunes the fifths selectively?

OK, only one more quick question. In my stock Hauptwerk temperaments, there is a fifth-comma meantone and a fifth-comma well tempered. Both apparently slice the comma differently. Is the difference just that the Meantone detunes the fifths equally, while the well-tempered detunes the fifths selectively?

In Equal Temperament, when you go 12 steps around the Circle of Fifths, you end up right back where you began. For any other Regular Temperament, the Circle never quite closes, and the final step has to be of a different size... too large if you're using Meantone (with all the other Fifths slightly small). This one step that doesn't match is called the "Wolf". In principle you can choose which Fifth gets to be the Wolf. A common choice today is the Fifth that would be from Ab to Eb, but is actually G# to Eb... which as you can see by the names is not really any kind of Fifth at all, but rather a Diminished Sixth (dissonance).

Fifth-Comma Meantone should work the same way, just the regular Fifths are not quite as narrow and the Wolf not quite as wide, compared to the original Quarter-Comma Meantone. To convert this into a Fifth-Comma "Well-Tempered", we leave the Naturals alone (or most of them) and re-arrange the Accidentals (or some of them) so as to "split the difference" and divide up the Wolf over two or more intervals, so no single interval is as strikingly bad. This gives the possibility of performance in all keys.