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How to Learn a New Song

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B777Captain

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How to Learn a New Song

PostWed May 28, 2014 10:01 am

All…

As one who does not read music but at a first grade level, needless to say it takes quite a while to learn 1 page of a piece let alone the whole piece!

But for the past 30 years I've always wanted to learn the famous BWV 577 Gigue Fugue. A few years ago I tried for a few weeks but got rather bogged down as my 4 limbs didn't seem to quite all work together.

I may have asked this in the past but I'll ask again…. Is it a good idea to start learning what one considers a complex piece by learning the keyboard only (all the way through?) and then after mastering the actual keynotes, then start learning the pedal and slowly but surely putting it altogether???

I'm sure part of the answer is that it's a personal choice depending on how each of us learns, but since I have no formal training, I thought I'd ask here for some guidance.

Thanks!!

Pat
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NickNelson

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Re: How to Learn a New Song

PostThu May 29, 2014 4:35 am

B777Captain wrote:Is it a good idea to start learning what one considers a complex piece by learning the keyboard only (all the way through?) and then after mastering the actual keynotes, then start learning the pedal and slowly but surely putting it altogether


I think the more usual advice is to learn the pedal part first. When that's thoroughly fluent add the left hand, and when pedal and left hand are solid add the righthand part(s).

This is what I try to do, though I'm nearly always tempted to add the new parts too early (ie before the lower parts are fully fluent) I think this is just a matter of discipline, which I probably don't have enough of. If the pedal part goes awry when you add the left hand, then it needs to be practiced some more.

As you say, much also depends on personal preference and your existing level of competence.

Nick
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icrutt

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Re: How to Learn a New Song

PostTue Jun 10, 2014 7:57 am

Learning music is a very personal thing - different people find different approaches work best for them. Personally, I like to work out the pedalling on paper first, trying bits of it through for practicality as necessay. Then, I will tend to practice manuals and pedals separately, and make a start ironing out any tricky bits. Next, I start putting manuals and pedal togther, but slowly. Trying to imagine what I'm going to be doing with my fingers and feet as you play helps. If necessary, I do LH + Pedals, then RH + Pedals.

I find that mostly it pays to go as slowly as necessary to get most of the notes right, although sometimes it helps to try and step up the speed - at least that way I discover which bits still need work. And sometimes the brain needs a bit of a jolt to persuade it to up its game.

The most important thing for me is to identify and fix problem areas as early as possible. If there's a bit which is hard, I try and work out why. It might be that the fingering or pedalling could be changed to something more comfortable, or a particular stretch needs work, or the coordination between parts is hard. I isolate the problem, and just practice that thing - could just be a couple of chords, or a scale, or half a bar. I play it over and over again as slow as necessary, and (v important) try to be be aware of how it feels under my fingers and feet.

The other things is that I mainly play music which is within or just beyond my immediate capabilities. I find I improve faster if I learn lots of pieces of music in succession rather than slaving away on one very hard piece for ages. I play for a couple of services per month, and try to avoid repeating myself in terms of pre- and post-service music. This means I have to learn quite a lot of new music, but by mainly learning things which aren't too hard (for me), and having a focussed goal to aim for, I get a lot of practice at learning new music. As well as this, I have harder pieces which I am learning in the longer term. The other advantage of this approach is that variety helps keep the mind interested, and thus focussed.

I hope some of that helps,

Ian
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Antoni Scott

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Re: How to Learn a New Song

PostMon Jun 16, 2014 7:52 pm

Pat:
Welcome to the club. I am either blind, or mentally challenged, or both, but it takes me an enormous amount of time to "learn" a piece, probably because I always tend to try to exceed my capabilities. The Gigue Fugue is a good example of something beyond my capabilities.

I am a horrible sight reader so I help myself by making the music notes as large as possible. I take the tiny sheet music and enlarge it on a copy machine to those huge pieces if paper to make the individual notes as large as possible. Also, any notes that go above the treble clef or above the bass clef, I write in what notes it is ( i.e. A,B,C, etc.).

I have found that practicing hands separately has not been helpful to me. I play the right hand first and then add the left. I don't practice the left alone as it doesn't sound right without the right hand along with it.
I play the manuals first, until I get the hang of the music before attempting to play all three (left hand, right hand and pedals) together.

Playing slowly doesn't necessarily help me.

Fingering is extremely important to me as runs up and down don't always mean that the thumb crosses under the hand after the same number of notes. All I can say is to jot down the fingering that suits you best. You can really mess things up if your fingering is off by one note.

Interestingly to me, hymns are the hardest for me to sight read as it is really four lines of music at the same time. I have a lot of respect for hymn readers as they are excellent sight readers. I always thought they had four brains, not one. One brain for each line.

I always obtain a recording of the piece I intent to practice, to get a hang of the timing. My timing is also very bad and even decades later still have difficulty with it. Listening to a piece of music before I attempt it is essential for me.

This is the way I do it, but it may be different for others. And of course, play the piece over and over again until you are satisfied with it.

Marie-Claire Alain said once that she practices in a dry acoustic because the reverberation covers up bad timing and mistakes. Maybe that's why I like long reverbs !!!!!!!

Antoni
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ernst

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Re: How to Learn a New Song

PostMon Jun 16, 2014 9:57 pm

Antoni,

That could have been me, writing your post. :) Same limitations and peculiar way of learning, though I tend to play all bars at the same time from the beginning. I know it is stupid but I just can´t stand those isolated hand or foot sounding, I want to hear it all. Because I only play beautiful pieces and of course out of my reach.

I usually look for PDF scores and (after some manipulation) print 2 bars per page. In that way a choral easily occupies 4 A4 pages on their side - that´s just what I can put on the music stand.

Ernst
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amun

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Re: How to Learn a New Song

PostTue Jun 17, 2014 3:18 am

Probably you might like to study this eBook, which caused a considerable improvement of my learning new songs:
http://www.pianopractice.org/book.pdf
Amun :wink:
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JSO

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Re: How to Learn a New Song

PostThu Jun 19, 2014 5:10 pm

What has worked for me so far is practicing each hand separately to the point of playing it without mistakes and mostly memorized. If the particular passage of music you're practicing does have pedaling in them, then memorize both hands. Practice the right hand, then the left hand, then together. Only after you've done some considerable amount of practicing with both hands start working on the pedaling. Pedals only, then pedals and one hand, then pedals and the other hand. That has worked for me, but I may be biased or using the wrong approach since I'm coming from the Piano.

Regarding learning the piece in its entirety hands-only first, I can't comment on whether it is a good approach or not, but when I've done it it motivates me to start working on the pedals, since doing so would mean you will be able to finally play the full piece.

I think everyone has found their own methods and what works for them. It's time to do some experimenting and find your own.
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Patrick Larhant

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Re: How to Learn a New Song

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 2:30 pm

Well, Bach's fugues are not easy pieces and 577is not the easiest one. So, how to eat an elephant ? Cut it into small pieces :D .
Learn the whole piece first without pedal ? I fear it would be frustrating because without the bass the harmonies will sound false and you won't have the sensation to play the true thing.
It would perhaps be more productive (and satisfying) to learn the piece measure by measure (e.g. a measure + the first beat of the next one) : right hand-left hand- pedal - R+P - L +P - R+L, and only then R+L+P, all that in a very slow tempo (e.g. a tempo where you can play at ease, without slips or tension, for instance 60 for the eight in 577or something else ; what imports is that you feel at ease in the tempo). When OK and really comfortable at a very slow tempo, it will be surprisingly easy to put the throttle up.
It takes time, and one needs to be patient, but suddenly after some time in the harm's way, things put themselves in place naturally.
And do lose all the the necessary time to find and mark fingerings : it will pay a hundred times. I learned 577 casually 6 moths ago with stupid fingerings (and at the end no mastering and no security in playing) and I am currently fighting to go back to reasonable fingerings : these are awful and painful moments !
Last : one needs to be patient : it can seem with no progress at all after hours of work, and suddenly…. :D
And when one wants really to play a piece, one cant find surprising resources ! Good luck, and 577 is also very nice and rewarding at NOT breakneck tempos !
PS : as you could judge, I am better at giving advice than at applying them :D :D
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ernst

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Re: How to Learn a New Song

PostThu Jun 26, 2014 3:06 pm

Patrick,

Interesting approach. I´ll be going to try that out!

Ernst

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