back pain with knees together

It occurred to me that since starting with my new teacher who advocates the knees-together method of pedalling, I seem to have rather more back pain than I used to after practising. Just sitting at the console and bringing my knees together seems to cause my lower back to tighten in a way I can't seem to relax....perhaps because of a less stable base and more muscle tension needed to maintain balance? Anyway, I just wondered if anyone else had noticed a similar thing or had any general observations about pedalling with knees together vs. apart.

Thanks!

My teachers, George Markey and Virgil Fox, taught the knee stays over the ankle. How would you possibly play the Widor Toccata with knees together?!?!?!?
Steve

Obviously it's not done when it's not possible as when playing parallel octaves, but as I understand it, keeping the knees together is supposed to give one more of a spatial point of reference to gauge intervals when the feet are playing less than an octave apart or so. It's a subject about which people seem to have strong feelings either for or against.

I was lucky to work with some very fine athletic coaches while involved in sports in college (aside: it was NCAA volleyball, and my organ teacher attended exactly one match. Once he saw balls ricocheting off my hands at more than 80mph, he said he could no longer watch). But the coaches emphasized three things for deep mastery of skills, especially under the pressure of high-level competition:

1. Do everything with the simplest possible motion.
2. Do everything in the strongest possible position.
3. Use repetition to master the skills (if you've seen the first Karate Kid movie, "wax on, wax off").

Applied to organ playing (which is a moderately physical activity, especially for a musical instrument), this would say that pedaling must be done using a minimum of movement with the body in the strongest possible position. It is not knee position that I would say matters most, but principles 1 and 2 above. Having knees a comfortable, strong distance apart is what I do and what I've teach to students over the years. The goals must be accurate playing with a minimum of effort, variability, and strain. The amount of knee separation that enables this will vary among people, but I don't see how knees together is the strongest possible position.

When Catherine Crozier was artist-in-residence at Trinity Cathedral here in Portland after her retirement, we got to see her play regularly for many years. She embodied (quite literally) these ideas; no matter what she was playing, it came forth with almost no perceptible motion, and appeared to be so easy and fluent that it was effortless. It was not forced stillness or rigidness, but utter mastery of the movements and total comfort and strength at the console. Never a tossed head or aggrandized arm motion. Total efficiency and effectiveness, even well into her 80s on very difficult music.

Principle 1 leads to accuracy, since every extraneous movement is another chance for error.
Principle 2 leads to lower injury rates and outstanding execution.
Principle 3 means that, even under blinding pressure in a difficult match (or recital performance) with the game on the line, you will revert to what you have trained so well to do.

Hope you find it useful.

Erik

Here's excessive movement. The saving grace is he can't be seen by listeners.
http://youtu.be/thnj8g46oco

Being 6'5" I can sympathize with you. In my younger years as an organist I carried blocks around to raise the bench. It wasn't until I began work on a DMA that I was able to grasp the concept that Erik refers in reference to Catherine Crozier and her impeccable quiet technique.

I soon realized that it was even more important for those of us who are "too" tall.

You need to develop perfect balance on the bench, with or without knees together, with or without the bench raised.

I learned that I needed to be a weeble. If you remember the little toys that had the jingle "weebles wobble but they don't fall down." They have perfect balance and always come back to the perfect position.

Relaxed perfect balance from head to toe is the key!

Here is a comercial from the 70's

https://youtu.be/dFzhjnjXc2o

Thanks mstng67, I well remember the weebles myself!

According to http://www.laphil.com/philpedia/music/parsing-organ-styles-and-eras, knees together is apparently French and knees apart, German. I do remember reading Dupré suggested students bind their knees together with a belt so as to keep them that way. My Flor Peeters Little Organ Book also suggests keeping knees together (and heels, when the toes span a 5th or less.) Doesn't seem very comfortable to me though, and apparently there's a variety of opinion on whether it's a good thing to do or not...perhaps depends somewhat on individual physical characteristics that vary from person to person.

Glad to see this discussed!!

My organ teacher in undergrad school demanded that we play with knees together, and frankly, that's why I stopped studying organ during undergrad.

I understand the advantage of the knees-together approach, and if your body can do it, it makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, many folks just aren't put together in a way conducive to the technique, just as some folks have a runner's build and others don't. I'm a big dude, and am simply not built to play with knees together. It just isn't natural, stable, or physiologically feasible for me. When I've tried, I feel tension going up and down my body, and as most every good musician knows, tension and music don't mix. It becomes all I'm able to think about while trying to play.

When I reached grad/doctoral school and wanted to study organ again, Don Sutherland's approach was so refreshing; he taught that we should sit normally and comfortably, just keep your center of gravity well centered. Pedaling should feel as natural as "walking down the street." If it doesn't feel natural, adjust the bench position until it does. Adjust the instrument to you, rather than try to adjust yourself to the instrument. This approach has allowed me to concentrate on building technique rather than worrying that I wasn't doing it "right." Organ study is hard enough without adding one-size-fits-all technique "rules" that serve as self-imposed barriers to musical growth.

The Idea of holding an Uncomfortable position, in order to make music properly,
reminds me of those Pianists that placed rubber bands from their fingers to a splint behind, in order to strengthen their fingering, "only to find out later, that they damaged the ligaments and or Muscles in their hands permanently ! ? ?

"Mstng67" According to http://www.laphil.com/philpedia/music/parsing-organ-styles-and-eras, knees together is apparently French and knees apart, German. I do remember reading Dupré suggested students bind their knees together with a belt so as to keep them that way. My Flor Peeters Little Organ Book also suggests keeping knees together (and heels, when the toes span a 5th or less.) Doesn't seem very comfortable to me though, and apparently there's a variety of opinion on whether it's a good thing to do or not...perhaps depends somewhat on individual physical characteristics that vary from person to person.

Knees together seems ridiculous if you picture playing alternate widely spaced notes.

So is the manuals equivalent thumbs or elbows together? I understand that knees together can assist in locating intervals, but do we believe that an experienced organist would have any more difficulty locating notes on the pedalboard than on the manuals? Besides, some of us did far too much horseback riding in our younger years, so the knees just don't want to naturally come together.

I say do what feels most comfortable. If what you're doing is causing pain it's obviously something a part of your body is not agreeing to or meant to do and you're putting undue pressure on things that can lead to more problems down the road. You can't torture yourself and expect a good outcome at the same time. Maybe your organ teacher's body can handle the knees together idea and yours isn't designed to handle it for possibly a myriad of reason, amongst them age, previous things you've done in life, and so on. While working with my teacher who at one time taught organ at the University of MN, didn't focus on knee separation so much and instead emphasized staying centered on middle D, sliding on the bench to reach notes when you have to, and mostly which foot on which note next and if it was toe or heel.

Marc

For some, because of appendages, the knees together approach can be quite painful

Yes, strange that no one mentions those sorts of problems very often!