Baroque Priorities: Thumbs and Toes

Wise and accomplished masters of the organ: Can you advise a harpsichordist planning a DIY Hauptwerk organ initially to explore the literature of Bach and milieu? Since I am naive about organ practice mechanics as relate; to sudden registration/coupling changes in the midst of piece, I'm wondering what my priorities should be in budgeting resources amongst the many control options.

I'm thinking that three manuals rather than two will go a long way to facilitate mid-piece changes; that touch-pad stop jamb monitors will greatly facilitate initial selection of stops, education, and setting of combination pistons or other registration; and that swell/crescendo pedals can be done without (at least initially) for the Baroque organ samples and literature I plan to work with. I'm speculating that toe studs are also redundant with thumb pistons for my purposes, so the whole design of a starter organ can leave those out along with the expression/crescendo pedals. Deluded?

So, if you are in agreement with me so far, that leaves first the issue of which of three manuals needs thumb pistons. I'd vote for the second manual for sure. Can I live with only that one, or do I need pistons on two (which?) or all three.

And on the subject of thumb pistons, can I live with the Fatar keyboards with just the least expensive square thumb pistons, or do I need to shell out for the round magnetic ones, or even lighted ones? Do the latter confer any likely performance convenience, or are they just for frivolous tactile and visual aesthetic gratification?

I suspect most of you organists, like myself, relish all opportunities to twiddle knobs and push buttons quadrapedically. But could you please help me to exert sober control and budget awareness in designing a starter organ with the most effective choices for my circumstances?

Please take this as a personal view from a non-expert.

Two manuals is good and three is excellent. More is overkill.
For baroque music you are probably right about the expression pedals.
For pistons, I use the ones on my touchscreen during set up and then have the Hauptwerk sequencer linked to pedals 31 and 32 for playing. You won't be using them very often to play any notes with so they become cheap toe studs.

I hope this helps,

Thanks Richard,
Love the pedalboard trick. That will help me keep my musical era, but not my wallet, baroque.
++morgen

Richard gave very good advice. I will add that you could possibly get by without thumb pistons initially, as Baroque music usually does not require a lot of registration changes, especially if you have three manuals. Registration changes are mostly accomplished by changing manuals.

There are some good books that explain what I referred to above. Barbara Owens authored one, appropriately titles "The Registration of Baroque Organ Music".

One thing that you might consider: If you start with 2 keyboards, you will continually kick yourself for not starting with three. Although there are those who will point to studies that conclude that Bach never changed registrations when playing, I think he would have loved them. You do not have to use them, but they will be there when nobody is watching and you want to sneak in a stop change, What I have done is to buy a three manual console (actually two consoles) with all the pistons, toe studs, and swell shoes that you could want. Artisan Instruments, and others, sells midi kits to convert the console, after it has been gutted. The keyboards will be squishy, but will serve for a while. My Allen console cost $500.00 delivered, and the midi kit was $650, as I remember. You can probably get a kid from a local tech school to wire the parts in, if you do not feel up to it. I am now switching the Allen keyboards to a stack with tracker touch (magnetic) and reverse color that came up locally, I think because I have been exceptionally good lately. Sources for used consoles are Church Organ Trader http://www.churchorgantrader.com/, Craigs List if there is one in your area, and local organ people.
James

Mike, James,

Thanks for the great leads and tips. I'm persuaded that having three manuals is the way to go, at least one of them having thumb pistons.

I'm still hoping for some advise regarding the differences or value amongst the Classic Midi Works options of less costly square pistons vs. round magnetic reed or even lighted ones. Do all thumb pistons conventionally spring back out after they are pressed, leaving no visual evidence of which was last pressed? Do the lighted ones work by illuminating the one last pressed?

I'm also still wondering which of the three keyboards should harbor the thumb pistons if only one, and which if two. I notice that the intriguing Schwindler three manual stack, when it comes with pistons, places them only on the lowest keyboard (I would have thought the central one. Strange, no?).

Morgen,

I own 3 Classic Midi Works keyboards with square pistons so I have an opinion on the quality of the pistons. If you can afford it I would go with the more expensive round pistons. The square ones make a loud click when pressed in and a somewhat softer click when released. Also, because they can be pressed in at many different angles (from any of the four sides of the piston) they don't always fire. The round pistons are nearly silent and they always fire.

I also have an opinion on the tracker simulation on these Fatar sourced keyboards. Having played on good mechanical action keyboards from Casavant, Brombaugh, Taylor and Boody, etc. for more years than I care to remember I don't think the tracker simulation is very realistic. The pluck is not pronounced enough and the spring that you have to push against to hold the key down is too strong. My impression of how the action feels fits perfectly with the chart of the Fatar action on the Fabio Mancini site describing the Schwindler keyboards they sell. http://www.fabiomancini.altervista.org/ ... raENG.html
The chart of the Schwindler action does appear to most closely simulate a good mechanical action. Unfortunately, I have been unsuccessful in trying to reach Fabio Mancini to inquire about purchasing these keyboards. If anyone in the US has had contact with him I would appreciate learning how you did it. Is there any other source for Schwindler keyboards? Does anyone have experience playing on these keyboards?

I hope this information helps you in your quest for good keyboards.

David

Hi David,

Thanks for your very helpful response. Now I see the appeal of the magnetic reed piston.

I recently created a second tracker topic: http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14272. Perhaps you might like to transfer your thoughts (and what follows) there too. In it Luis posted a very helpful link to extensive discussion of Schwindler keyboards: http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13821&p=102254&hilit=Schwindler#p102254.

The Schwindler keyboard--if it is obtainable--is intriguing from the pressure profile to which you refer, but so far as I can tell lacks the capacity to transmit MIDI bidirectional key velocity as may be useful in implementing some of the newer tracker sample sets. I wonder if the Fatar product could be conservatively modified (yet still voiding the warranty) by placing a set of tiny magnets (on and above/below each key) that separate or pass one another at the moment sound is produced, emulating Schwindler's concept. The return springs could simultaneously be swapped for more gentle ones (as offered on Martin Digital Organ's site).

Regards,
++Morgen

AFIK pistons ( and toe-studs) are an invention closely related to Theatre-Organs (TO), a prerequisite being the electrical traction. Pistons in the TO-world are presets of stop combinations, which in early times where set mechanically on setter boards. Their purpose was to change registrations very quickly as required by music to entertain on an organ constructed as a Unit Orchestra ( multiplex system by Hope Jones), which can have even in a simple construction more than 100 stops.

The control of a preset action on TO's is echoed to the player by the moving of the stops ( SAM's or pneumatically) into their "preset" position - which gives a visual control of the registration chosen.
PSE watch the change of the tab-stops carefully...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2MVuLoiWM

AFA the illumination of the pistons is concerned my question would be answered by considering that you hopefully know which registration you are playing and which colour you expect pressing the next one - not illuminated....illumination won't help!

IMHO pistons for Baroque music are nice to have but not baroque!

Rgds,
amun

Hello Amun,

Good point, there seems little utility to the illumination feature; and the stops should appear to have changed on the stop jamb monitors.

The Bowdler video is quite amazing; his keyboard and stop changing skills are ungodly. The way he rotates his head and smiles while continuing to play makes me wonder whether his talents result from some deal with the devil.

Morgen

AFIK pistons ( and toe-studs) are an invention closely related to Theatre-Organs (TO), a prerequisite being the electrical traction.

This is probably true of the sophisticated combination actions we expect today but the idea has been around for a long time using pnematic and even purely mechanical means.

Nick

Our 1923 Casavant has combo Pistons, couplers, and reversables complete with Setter that uses many miniature bellows to move complicated wooden structures which in turn move the stops. So the console is quite deep to accommodate the mechanisms. All done with wind power.

Registrational aids go back to at least the 18th c. Sometimes referred to as "machine stops", early designs would generally add and retire the upperwork stops in fixed, non-adjustable, combinations.

The Cavaillé-Coll organ in St. Sulpice (1862) has a very ingenious pneumatic system (still in use) whereby the current registration can be stored while preparing stops for a succeeding change. This can often be seen in use in Daniel Roth's performances on YouTube, generally managed by two registrants, one on each side as shown here:



In the US adjustable combinations were introduced by Roosevelt in the 1880's I believe.

All of this well before the age of the theater organ.

Richard: Fascinating! And when they're not preparing stops, can the registrants be used to prune the shrubbery, prepare the soufflé and do the dishes after?

Just one little remark about the number of manuals: I think it could be perfectly reasonable to go up to 4 manuals. Several (neo-)baroque sample sets have 4 manuals: Kampen, Zwolle, St Maximin, St Michel, Rotterdam... Dom Bedos has even 5.

(there are also many Romantic/Modern sample sets with 4-5 manuals).

Nevertheless, if you don't have that many manuals, Hauptwerk has facilities to swap rapidly between settings how virtual manuals are connected to the ones on your console.