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how to use mutation stops?

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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby profeluisegarcia » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:14 pm

Hello posters: this topic has moved toward the interesting problem of 32´resultant. And I have I simple (or perhaps, silly) question about 32 resultant,please:
When real pipes when C and G (16´) are played simultaneously each pipe will produce an independent wave, so the resultant 32 is clearly perceived.
But in virtual amplified organs, does the mixed resultant in formed (constructed) in the cone of the speaker or in the air?
Thanks¡
Last edited by profeluisegarcia on Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby jkinkennon » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:31 pm

I wish I had some extra time today to set up a quick demo that would illustrate that the resultant is purely a psychoacoustic effect and is not actually generated anywhere. If someone wants to give it a try just set up a test microphone connected to a spectrum analyzer, which can be a free PC application. Play a real 32' stop versus the resultant combination of notes. In both cases get a screen grab of the results to post here. I'm confident that only one method will produce the actual tone. Glad to be proven wrong of course.

We musicians get careless about the use of the term "mixing", perhaps because we have audio mixers which combine sounds but do not mix them in the classic engineering sense. The sort of mixing that would produce an actual tone at the resultant frequency would require a nonlinear stage that would produce tons of distortion. My vote is for the effect happening in our little grey cells.
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby josq » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:42 am

True. Let me try to be a bit more clear on this one. A 32' resultant is not identical to a real 32'. There are similarities. They have the same upper harmonics, as OrganoPleno explained. But the resultant lacks an ingredient. It does not have the fundamental.

Yes, as I tried to explain, it has a beat frequency at the same frequency as the fundamental. But this beat frequency lacks acoustic energy, as stated in the Pykett article shared by Frank_VTPO. So on a pipe organ, a resultant 32' will consume less wind than a real 32'. And on a speaker system the resultant consumes less power (in answer to profeluisegarcia, if you analyze the vibrations of the speaker cone, you will find back the beat frequency, but again, it is just a side effect of combining the 16' and 10 2/3' and the speaker uses no extra power to create this beat frequency).

The spectrum analyzer experiment suggested by jkinkennon will reveal the magnitude of the audio singal versus the frequency, and for the resultant we will find no peak at the fundamental frequency. And our ears will pick up the difference too.

So to state it sceptically, a resultant stop is a cheapo fake replacement for the real thing. Viewing it positively, the presence of the Quint (the 10 2/3') gives a distinctive rumble to the bass, and that effect is at times quite cool to hear.
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby sonar11 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:46 am

It's true that a resultant does not replace a true 32', but that can be a positive too; the right organ in the right acoustic space can sound truly incredible with a resultant, whereas a real 32' would be overpowering. Sometimes that growl from the resultant harmonics is "just enough" :!:
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby sonar11 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:53 am

profeluisegarcia wrote:Hello posters: this topic has moved toward the interesting problem of 32´resultant. And I have I simple (or perhaps, silly) question about 32 resultant,please:
When real pipes when C and G (16´) are played simultaneously each pipe will produce an independent wave, so the resultant 32 is clearly perceived.
But in virtual amplified organs, does the mixed resultant in formed (constructed) in the cone of the speaker or in the air?
Thanks¡


I believe that this depends on the sample and how it was recorded. If the resultant is recorded as a separate stop, then it is "premixed" and played back like any other stop. If the resultant is created in the sample by playing the pitches of two pipes then it will be mixed in the air.

This is the same with string and the celeste as well, some samples record the string + celeste together as a separate stop and play this recording instead of playing each string + celeste separately, there can be huge differences in the sound. I think one of the sample producers had a sample of this on the forum not too long ago.
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby TheOrganDoc » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:33 pm

I recall years ago Visiting one of the Pipe Chambers of The former Wanamaker's (Macy's) store in Philadelphia.

I noted several sets of Stopped 16' Pipes, that had a smaller open Pipe next to each large Pipe,
they were the 10 2/3 pipes, and each of their mouth's were very close to the 16' Pipe's mouth !
They were apparently Duplexed,
"I would imagine that this would very much enhance the 32', beat of each note" :roll:

Mel
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby Bonanches » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:42 am

The pedal section of the Binns organ that I play is being renovated at the moment. The bottom octave of the 32ft Open Wood was generated by it quinting raucously on itself (16 and 10 2/3). Experiment showed that taking the quint from the quieter pedal Sub Bass was much more effective with the quinting less apparent and the 32ft effect much more convincing. This will be implemented in the scheme plus I have added a 4ft extension to the rank. I hope that James Jepsom won't be too upset at the alterations!
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby jcrowley » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:03 pm

Just to add my two "cents" the mutation or fractional pitches are also incredibly handy when used with the reeds because they enforce the fundamental and bolster the treble end of the stop. Three are many excellent builders who add flue fractional pipes to the boot of a reed pipe for just this reason especially in the treble. This helps the reeds on instruments that have very low wind pressure speak clearly. On the fractional bass quint @10 2/3' thus works far better in venues such as super dry American sanctuaries that do not have the full 75' linear run (which is about the space needed for a full length 32' pitch to display the full wave form). The resultant or quint sounds much better in these venues but even better in a fairly live acoustic setting. The sound is quite buoyant and full without being too heavy -keep in mind it is always better to have an independent stop at this fractional pitch and it should be voiced to work well with all 16' stops. Some interesting observations I particularly enjoy an 8' stop with the lower quint the sound is quite unique and it also helps if you have a Rauschquint or Hintersatz 2 rank stop at 5 1/3' pitch none of these stops has to be too aggressive you will be able to hear the 32' pitch very keenly.
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby organsRgreat » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:44 am

In a domestic setting the lower notes of a 32 foot stop are unlikely to be heard (or felt), but when playing higher on the pedalboard the pitches move into the range where they become audible – after all, they're at the pitch the 16 foot stops sound in the bottom octave. So one reason for including a 32 foot in one's registrations is to add warmth to the bass line in the upper reaches of the pedalboard.
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby scottherbert » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:57 pm

profeluisegarcia wrote:Hello posters: this topic has moved toward the interesting problem of 32´resultant. And I have I simple (or perhaps, silly) question about 32 resultant,please:
When real pipes when C and G (16´) are played simultaneously each pipe will produce an independent wave, so the resultant 32 is clearly perceived.
But in virtual amplified organs, does the mixed resultant in formed (constructed) in the cone of the speaker or in the air?
Thanks¡



Hi Luis, in addition to the many great answers already given, specific to your question, it is better to have the 2 ranks come from 2 separate speakers and mix in the air, than from the cone of a single speaker. The same for celeste stops. The late Leo Christopher (chis-037) made this observation with his huge setup. He had a speaker pair for each rank so that the sound would mix in the air, especially celestes and resultants. He said the difference was like night and day! More like the way real pipes mix in the air.

I have heard excellent resultants that rumbled my 'innards' quite effectively with real pipes, and been quite disappointed with sampled ones through a single speaker.

~S
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby TheOrganDoc » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:20 pm

Does anyone here, expect to hear a full strength 16 Hertz fundamental from their Sub Speakers,
The only time I have heard, (Felt) this is when using, 8 15" professional Speakers as a sub, in a large hall ! :wink:
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby TheOrganDoc » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:28 pm

If your speakers cannot produce a 16 Hertz fundamental at a good volume level,
than you will not hear, (feel) a 16 Hertz Beat either ! Sorry :oops:

"Many BIG Speakers", and "Very High quality Amplifiers required", to feel 16 Hertz from speakers ! :roll:
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby scottherbert » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:01 pm

Very true Mel! I believe it takes a full 64 feet of free air to actuate a full 16Hz wave, which few of us have a living room of that size! It is said that the sound can be felt (heard) with a half, or even a quarter of a wave, which would be 16', but I doubt you would have as much of an impact (oops, pun!) and probably not as easy and natural.

Yes, I can be wrong!!! I'm sure someone will disagree. I just feel that forcing a quarter wave with tons of watts doesn't compare with the easy rumble of a full wave when you have the room.

This is why I seldom bother with 32' stops at home. the effect just isn't pleasing here. Too many things in the house rattle, 'She-who-must-be-obeyed' complains, and it just doesn't sound good to me. Sometimes I use a 16' pedal coupler so that there is no bottom octave.

Of course we MUST remember that when we speak of 16Hz, we are only speaking of a single note! ALL the rest are higher than that one. Just something to think about! :wink:

I guess whatever makes you happy!

~S
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby jkinkennon » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:55 am

It isn't necessary to excite a 16' or 32' resonant mode to produce 16Hz. After all, 16Hz can be produced in a fraction of an inch inside headphones. Nor is it necessary to rattle anything. If more than a picture frame is rattling then it's likely that the sub is turned way too high or not properly equalized.

What one should expect to feel is the "shudder" of the air, for want of a better word. Whether or not this contributes to realism we can leave to individual tastes, but it is achievable without spending a lot over $1000. My own listening area is about 12x16 and is partially open to other rooms. However the Rythmik Audio sub I prefer worked as well in a space that was closer to 10x12 but again open at one end to a larger space. I wouldn't give up the sensation of a 32' stop at home.
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Re: how to use mutation stops?

Postby josq » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:54 am

the discussion is going a bit off-topic, but I guess standing waves can be a reason that a bass note is hardly audible in one part of the room, while in another part everything is rattling
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