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Need some "settle a friendly argument" (Sostenuto) help

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Need some "settle a friendly argument" (Sostenuto) help

Postby engrssc » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:39 pm

An organist I know was watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go0n_J1qDas Pierre playing the Paramount 450 - Somewhere. Here's the "issue". Friend organist thinks he see evidence that there is a sustain feature on the Great, as used to hold notes in certain places. My observation is that Pierre has registered the accomp manual so that he can hold that melody note with his left fore finger and thumb (on the accomp manual) thus leaving his right hand free to do other neat things. My argument mostly works except starting here https://youtu.be/go0n_J1qDas?t=151

He does an excellent job of "thumbing". I have been working on that recently and have a sore right thumb.

If it would be possible to watch this video in slo mo, it would be a great lesson in really neat fingering.

So is it A (him) or B (me).? :?

I might add a switchable sustain would be (is) a nice feature. I have it (sort of). I have a kick switch mounted to the left expr pedal which when activated, turns off (momentarily) any MIDI (as in Note Off) messages coming from that given manual. (A controlled cypher) Releasing if sends an All Notes Off for that manual. A little tricky to do, but it works. 8) Almost like chewing gum and walking. :roll: Is there a better way to do such? Have to ask CC maybe. :wink:

BTW, "our" next discussion involves splitting a manual and where to do it effectively and efficiently.. By that I mean possibly being able to move that split point while playing, hmmm.

BTW #2 sounds fantastic using the AKG K712's.

Rgds,
Ed
Last edited by engrssc on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" help

Postby mdyde » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:56 am

engrssc wrote:I might add a switchable sustain would be (is) a nice feature. I have it (sort of). I have a kick switch mounted to the left expr pedal which when activated, turns off (momentarily) any MIDI (as in Note Off) messages coming from that given manual. (A controlled cypher) Releasing if sends an All Notes Off for that manual. A little tricky to do, but it works. 8) Almost like chewing gum and walking. :roll: Is there a better way to do such? Have to ask CC maybe.


Hello Ed,

I can't remember off-hand whether the Paramount 450 has one, but most of the Hauptwerk theatre organ sample sets do have native sustain/sostenuto functions.

We have an enhancement request logged for 'master' sustain/sostenuto functions (to make them available for sample sets that don't have them natively), so I've added your notes to that request.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" help

Postby ldeutsch » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:10 am

I can verify that both of your theories are possible.

The Paramount 450 has a Great Sostenuto feature that allows the organist to keep notes sounding on the Great by activating a switch somewhere else on the console. I have this wired to a physical switch on one of my expression pedals.

The 450 also has a 4' Great to Accompaniment coupler on the Accompaniment second touch. This allows the organist to duplicate the registration on the Great by depressing keys further on the Accompaniment. This was a pretty standard feature on Wurlitzer theater organs and has been picked up by almost all the HW theater organ sample sets.

Les
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" help

Postby engrssc » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:47 am

Thanks to both of you. A Master Sostenuto for any sampled organ would be very welcome, Martin. :lol:
Great explanation, Les. 8)

He said he'd buy me a beer if I was right, but I don't drink beer. Maybe we can settle on a Star Bucks He can buy one for me, and I'll buy one for him :)

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" help

Postby rayjcar » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:16 pm

I agree that a sostenuto control (on the Great manual only) would be a welcome addition. But I notice that sostenuto switches are not apparent on either the Barton or Robert Morton sample sets, and I wonder if perhaps the sostenuto was unique to Wurlitzer. This link takes you to the patent:

https://www.google.com/patents/US1769369

It's fascinating technology (for its era) when you consider that the real sostenuto mechanism allows you to play additional notes on the great manual, after activating the control, without the additional notes being held. This functionality is replicated correctly in the Paramount and Masterworks sample sets.

The purists might therefore argue that such a control should be limited to Wurlitzer sample sets.

Ray
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" help

Postby engrssc » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:44 pm

rayjcar wrote:I agree that a sostenuto control (on the Great manual only) would be a welcome addition.
It's fascinating technology (for its era) when you consider that the real sostenuto mechanism allows you to play additional notes on the great manual, after activating the control, without the additional notes being held. This functionality is replicated correctly in the Paramount and Masterworks sample sets.

The purists might therefore argue that such a control should be limited to Wurlitzer sample sets.


Guess I'm not a "purist", then. I really don't know of very many if any T/O fans that are. Since I have a sort of Sostenuto, I use it even when playing classical (oops :shock: ) and even hymn tunes That extra pair of hands is a really neat add-on sometimes getting that reaction -'How did you do that?' 8)

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" help

Postby engrssc » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:34 pm

rayjcar wrote:It's fascinating technology (for its era) when you consider that the real sostenuto mechanism allows you to play additional notes on the great manual, after activating the control, without the additional notes being held. This functionality is replicated correctly in the Paramount and Masterworks sample sets.


Ray got me to think a little further and I found this:

Cantabile now supports a “Sostenuto” MIDI filter…

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/

https://blog.cantabilesoftware.com/sostenuto-midi-filter-d53257535cde#.bs785ddpt

What esp caught my eye was this:

What does it do?

In case you’re not familiar with sostenuto it’s similar to the damper/sustain pedal except it only holds the notes that were on at the time the pedal was pressed.

eg:

Play and hold a chord
Press and hold the sostenuto pedal
Release the chord — it’ll continue to sound
Play other notes — they won’t be held. eg: play staccato
Release the sostenuto pedal and the chord will be released
Finally, and optionally, choose which MIDI channel(s) it should work on


That sounds pretty much the same as the Wurlitzer function that Ray described and that's pretty cool. 8)
In addition, (which I understand to mean) by choosing whichever MIDI channel meaning whichever keyboard manual I need use Sostenuto. And all of these functions are under MIDI control :lol:

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" (Sostenuto) help

Postby IainStinson » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:13 am

You fcan find a sostenuto pedal on some (acoustic) grand pianos. It is usually the middle pedal.
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" (Sostenuto) help

Postby telemanr » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:11 am

My Yamaha U3 upright had a sostenuto pedal.
Rob Enns
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" (Sostenuto) help

Postby engrssc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:28 am

Speaking of pedals, I find it difficult to obtain (just) a kick switch like I have which can be mounted to the side of an expression pedal. There are some new ones for around $200, but that's too expensive.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" (Sostenuto) help

Postby jkinkennon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:06 pm

I noticed that Rodgers lists a feature for their current organs that allows the high F# pedal to be used for sustain. The F# pedal or any other switch could be implemented as sostenuto with the right programming or external translator software. I was planning on copying this functionality for my new console and perhaps I should include the D# and have both sostenuto and sustain for the future piano addition.

I can see the purists grimacing.
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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" (Sostenuto) help

Postby rayjcar » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:52 pm

When I converted my Rodgers 333 Olympic, I bought a couple of kick switches from Arndt Organ Supply. At the time (2012) they were under $40 US each. There is a real roller microswitch which is actuated by the kick plate. I have found them to be excellent.

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Re: Need some "settle a friendly argument" (Sostenuto) help

Postby engrssc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:52 pm

jkinkennon wrote:I can see the purists grimacing.


And those of us "non purists" are applauding the courage to be a non conformist. :lol:

Rgds,
Ed
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