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Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

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BarryG

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Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostThu Jul 16, 2009 3:07 pm

I'm trying to learn some baroque pieces, notably organ chorales of Bach and Buxtehude. Most scores note more or less ornamentation, which I'm trying to learn to play. However, as I listen to various performances of the same works, the players have diverse approaches to the ornamentation -- some keep closely to the score, some skip and add a little, some add significant amounts throughout performances.

I believe there is probably no right-or-wrong answer, and ultimately I'll play what feels and sounds "good" to me, but I'd appreciate opinions/experience. Is this a little akin to perhaps playing jazz or improvisation, the performer freely playing little riffs while sticking to the main melodies?

I found a very interesting and helpful book http://www.archive.org/details/organworksofbach005741mbp written in about 1922 called "The Organ Works of Bach" by Harvey Grace. It is 300+ pages discussing the history, interpretation, registration, and such. In it, he opines that, referring to the playing of "O Mensch...." and two other pieces,

"At the risk of being called a vandal I venture to suggest that most of the ornaments may well be omitted. They belong to the clavecin rather than to the organ, and they add a great deal to the technical difficulty without contributing anything notable on the expressive side. On the contrary, in some cases they induce a trivial and showy effect. Moreover, they are as a whole obsolete, and they sometimes give an antiquated effect to music which is still vital. The most we can safely do is to make use of a judicious selection. After all, such things were always more or less ad libitum, so that in omitting some of them we are doing no more than exercising a traditional right of choice."

As I seek my own voice with these new (to me) pieces, I'd appreciate and benefit from hearing yours.

Thanks in advance.

Barry Gerken
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B. Milan

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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostThu Jul 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Hello Barry,

You might look at obtaining a copy of Frederick Neumann's book titled "Ornamentation in Baroque and Post-Baroque music - With Special Emphasis on J.S. Bach"

This is probably the most thorough book on baroque ornaments that I am aware of. It is published by Princeton University Press with an ISBN # 0-691-02707-2.

http://www.amazon.com/Ornamentation-Bar ... 0691027072

It's about 2 inches thick, so plenty to read!

I don't think Bach would have taken the time to so carefully write in ornaments if he didn't want them to be played, so I would tend to disagee with those comments you quoted above from Harvey Grace's writings.
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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostThu Jul 16, 2009 9:12 pm

You would think that ornamentation aught to be a fairly straight forward topic, but it is not, and the proof is that volumes have been written on the subject, and opinions still vary, and are subject to the taste and whims of the time. A few points come to mind.
1) early organ music usually / often wrote out the ornamentation in full (including Buxtehude). As music notation became more uniform and more codified, so too, did the ornamentation notation become more uniform - that is to say ornamentation notation is a musical abreviation, and is still an integral part of the musical score, and it aught not to be considered arbitrary.
2) The harpsichord was considered the instrument to display the art of ornamentation par excellence, and since most organists were also harpsichordists, ornamentation ala bon gout must at least to some extent also be a part of organ playing. But probably never to same extent, because the harpsichord was a courtly instrument intended to entertain - and dazzle was often part of the entertainment. The organ, on the other hand, was usually a liturgical instrument, with religious edification at the forefront - dazzle and entertainment may creep in, but it wasn't it's primary purpose. Ornamentation likely was a little more on the down low in the church.
3)Bach was a wonderfully benevolent plagarist. Remember that scene in Amadeus when Mozart took a little pretty piece by Saliari, and transformed it on the spot into his own music? Bach did that all the time, he could see the musical possibilities in another composers piece, and transform it into his own. Look up Pachelbels Ricercare in C Minor, and compare it to Bach's Canzona - it's the same piece with all potential brought out. So as to ornamentation. If you know where bach got his idea from - was it North German, Italian, French. or even the composer he gets his inspiration from, that will be a guide as to how you might approach ornamentation.

Just some thoughts . . .

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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 4:22 am

Just my very very modest contribution:
Due to the relative fast decay of harpsichord tones the rich ornamentation (graces) found mainly in baroque literature for this instrument has the purpose of enhancing the musical expression. Of cause there is some akinship with those for the organ. There's ample sources in the www. Look for graces+ornamentation.
It´s a virtue to be well-tempered.
German speaking readers are invited to visit http://www.orgelbits.de for info about HW subjects.
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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 8:49 am

Thank you all very much for your insights.

Thinking of ormamentation as shorthand notation instead of "riffs", for example, is very helpful, as is considering the historical context of the instruments, composers, and audiences. I'll pay more attention to learning what they mean and how to play them. More research ....

Can you recommend particular performers/performances that you consider play the ornamentation "correctly"? I recently studied/learned to play several transcriptions of solo piano jazz pieces (Evans, Story, Peterson, Brubeck). When first just reading and playing the scores, many passages sounded stilted, somehow not "natural"; listening to original recordings provided the breakthrough in the subtleties of the playing -- musical notation simply doesn't precisely capture the performance. If only modern recording had been invented a few hundred years sooner!

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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 9:06 am

In my humble opinion, ornamentation can be omitted if your skill level isn't up to the task - and in some cases, there are not time to do them. :) However, one should learn the pieces with the ornamentation in order to learn the style of playing. I do not like purists that rant over how Bach played his pieces - I play them as MY interpretation, I do not try to be a Bach copycat.
That being said, I really do not care too much for musicians that do too much interpretation - in my opinion, Ton Koopman plays too fast and in a different style than what baroque should be. Don't get me wrong - he is a very talented and skilled organist, and some pieces he plays beautifully. But I do not like the overall style of his.

To sum up, I think that you should learn the ornamentation, but do not read the score as an absolute. Color the performance with your own style and interpretation. And somewhere down the line, you can play any piece with baroque "style" - much in the same way that I can play any melody in "liturgical hymn style", since I've played a lot of hymns. :)

Do not become a purist, but you don't need to turn AC/DC either. :)
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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 10:01 am

vidarf wrote:in my opinion, Ton Koopman plays too fast a


Not specifically related to Koopman (because honestly I haven't listened to enough of him), but in general there's an unfortunate tendency among many players in my opinion to race through music as though it were the Indy 500. Even "presto" or "allegro vivace" doesn't mean you have to abandon the MUSIC for the sake of virtuoso finger flying. Hear it all the time. Hate it, and just move on to the next track.
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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostSat Jul 18, 2009 8:50 am

Grant's and vidarf"s comments are very interesting to me. I've listened to several Koopman performances on YouTube and have the same reaction. A couple caught me just right, that is, just sounded as if that were the way they were meant to be played. A couple of others, not so -- too fast, too much ornamentation (far more than in the original score).

Tempo is a particular question for me. There is a wide range of beats/per/minute for most of the terms used to denote tempo in the original scores. But in my limited experience, many performances seem rushed, not just Bach keyboard works, but frequently the Brahms, Chopin, and Beethoven piano pieces from which the performer can (and should!) wring emotion. Some performances seem aimed more at demonstrating technical virtuosity than interpreting the nature of the music, or perhaps it's just that, by the time the 500th playing takes place, it has lost it's original charm. The chorales that I'm beginning to learn just "want to be played" more slowly than I've found them in most performances I've listened to! Part of that is the natural slower playing while learning, but most is just how I hear the music.

Anyway, thanks to all for your insights. I'll probably attempt to ornament according to the original scores (I still harken back to Brett's shorthand-notation comment) until I have sufficient experience to judge better on my own.

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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostSat Jul 18, 2009 5:50 pm

Forgive me if I'm being rude or "snotty" here, but: even if a musician plays the same piece for the n'th time, he/she should interpret it and add the required soul and feel to it! If not, one should simply play a MIDI-file on a soundblaster or similar! :)

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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostSat Sep 05, 2009 3:21 pm

Just because it isn't marked doesn't mean there shouldn't be an ornament. Notation in many places where it was customary to add ornaments was ommitted from the score as they were implied by the conventions of the time. Many artists these days are slaves to the score do not add sufficient ornamentation. Some overdo it. Performance of Baroque music should be disciplined but maintain a free and expressive attitude.
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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostSun Sep 27, 2009 3:09 pm

Hi!

The real solution to this is to experience the aural tradition and that inspired by original instruments.

Please consider going on the Organ Academy at St Maximin www.orgue-saintmaximin.com which this year was totally transformatory for my son and I. Couperin is a good place to start where every ornament is a shorthand to the direction of the tune - and I find it very difficult: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6lC1NeGn_U whilst my son finds it more natural: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cL8QDLv8vM

That organ is unchanged since before the French Revolution and if you like Bach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSf7-4t_SWc will lift your spirits.

Incidentally, the Academy comes with an amazing handbook over an inch thick packed densly with source materials on rhythm, ornamentation, registration and a host of other issues occurring in the performance of Baroque.

Finally, from the handbook, it's apparent that on the harpsichord trills increased in speed in order to increase the number of plicks per second with maximum intensity of the string vibrations, so sound increases with repetition frequency. Not so on the organ of course.

Best wishes

David P
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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostMon Sep 28, 2009 10:42 am

Thank you, David. If only I could go to the Organ Academy ....

I'm finding that I'm much more comfortable with interpreting and playing the baroque music after considerable listening to others' interpretations and my own practice. I'm sticking pretty much to the ornaments that the original composer wrote down so far, but am playing a little more free-form for those as I get my own "feel" for the music. Your comment regarding trills on the harpsichord are interesting -- some of the organ ranks speak slowly enough that one can't trill as quickly as on a harpsichord (or piano, more in my case).

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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostMon Sep 28, 2009 4:41 pm


Finally, from the handbook, it's apparent that on the harpsichord trills increased in speed in order to increase the number of plicks per second with maximum intensity of the string vibrations, so sound increases with repetition frequency.


That doesn't sound right at all. I don't think there's a single description of a keyboard trill like that, except perhaps for an occasional mention that the things can speed up if the note is very long. But as a regular thing, definitely not. Italian vocal ornaments were described as speeding up, and it could be that the compiler of the handbook was misled by these, since one is called the "trillo," although it's not our trill - it's the repetition of a single note, and not the alternation of two notes, which they called the "gruppo." It was primarily a vocal ornament, also used on string instruments, but obviously not on keyboard.
the
But for non-Italian practice - the handbook is definitely not representing what we have from historical sources (although, of course, modern players can make their own decisions on purely musical grounds).

As for BarryG's listening to others and following what the composer wrote until he gets a good feel - that seems like the ideal way to do it. Couperin wrote that it annoyed him when other people played his music adding or subtracting ornaments, so you should feel free to add or subtract ornaments if you want to annoy him, but not otherwise. Other composers may have to be approached differently - Couperin's remark indicates that people did put in their own ornaments, and some composers may have expected that.
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Re: Ornamentation in Baroque Pieces? Opinions?

PostMon Sep 28, 2009 5:20 pm

I have a real harpsichord, and do not find that the volume of sound is in any way influenced by the repetition, or "plicks per second". Whoever wrote that had perhaps a limited hands on experience with the instrument. Because the sound drops off so rapidly after a string is plucked, the extended trills keep the sound of the note going, not making anything louder in the process.
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