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Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

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BarryG

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Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostThu Jul 16, 2009 3:17 pm

Having led a life apparently sheltered from certain musical knowledge, I only recently discovered that what I had been taught and thought of all these decades as "treble clef" and "bass clef" are really G-clef and F-clef, and special cases of those!

I became enlightened while trying to figure out why, when playing some baroque scores as I would normally, they sounded awful. Hmmm, what is that funny bass clef symbol? Ah ha, thank you Wikipedia, it's C-clef (and usually alto C-clef).

I've found scores that transcribe/transpose C-clef to F-clef for some of the pieces I want to try, but the real answer is reading and playing C-clef, I expect.

Is there any simple "trick" to this? Or does one simply have to really learn how to read it directly, just as I so naturally now read and play my "treble" and "bass" clefs.

Barry Gerken
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dhm

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostThu Jul 16, 2009 3:32 pm

Look for which line the "C" curls around. That line is always Middle C.
Everything else has to be worked out relative to that.
If it's an Alto Clef, the centre line is Mid C.
Hope this helps.

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Stefanussen

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostThu Jul 16, 2009 3:34 pm

Hi Barry, I ran into this same problem when trying to learn "Wachet Auf". My teacher said that I needed to get a score without the C-clef. You COULD learn to read it, but why? I remember first learning the piano when I was in my single-digits. I was so upset at whoever decided to make me read two different clefs. I am certainly not interested in learning a third clef, to each their own though.
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gtaubman

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostThu Jul 16, 2009 6:15 pm

Are you trying to read chorale scores where the Soprano, Alto, and Tenor lines are all in C clefs? If you play the Violin, you can think of the Alto clef as just playing in 3rd position, or a third down from Treble clef. A lot of Violists learn like that. As for Tenor and Soprano, good luck :D.
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GDay

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostThu Jul 16, 2009 8:24 pm

The C-clef is simply a device to keep the notes within the 5 bar staff. The only reason you might want to learn it is for your own edification. Other orchestral instruments do use the C clefs regularly, but as virtually all (or simply all) organ music can be purchased using only the G and F clef (or the treble and bass clef) there is really no need to learn them - there is no inherent musicality in using one clef over another.

G'Day
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BarryG

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 9:26 am

Well, now I know there's no "trick". I understand why it is/was used, and have successfully found most pieces I want to try playing in the "normal" clefs. Some have eluded me in my usual hunting grounds. For example, I've been unable to find Brahms "O Gott...." Opus 122 No. 7 except with C-clef. Any suggestions?

The fallback is simply to avoid such pieces. There's plenty to learn without adding different clefs to the list.

Thanks for your comments.

Barry Gerken
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GDay

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 12:06 pm

Hi Barry,
I've got that piece from Novello, using treble and bass clef. If you really must have this piece, I'm happy to fax or email it to you.

G'Day
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pwhodges

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 3:21 pm

BarryG wrote:I've been unable to find Brahms "O Gott...." Opus 122 No. 7 except with C-clef. Any suggestions?

I use this volume from Edition Peters, which is the whole set of pieces, in modern clefs. (The EP6333A and EP6333C volumes give early works and four of Op122 laid out to make it easier to bring out the chorale melody respectively.)

Paul
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GDay

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 3:46 pm

Hello Paul,

$15.00, hmm. Mine costs 8s.6d. I wonder if that dates it's publication?

G'Day
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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 4:47 pm

If you are really looking for a 'trick', you just need to mentally read each note as being 'one above' where it is written, and read it as the treble clef (as you would when transposing up a tone). Obviously you would then need to play all the notes down an octave, but that's easy enough.

Of course if you are a cellist you could instead read each note as being 'one below' where it written, and read it as the bass clef!

deW
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gecko

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 6:40 pm

If you're a cellist, you can probably already read the tenor clef (c on the fourth line from the bottom) since cello music uses that for high-ish part. Ditto bassoon. Viola, of course, routinely uses alto (c on the middle).
If you can't read these, you're going to be skipping over a bunch of orchestral, and even string-quartet, music.

Avoidance is the worst thing since the only way to learn these is to practice them. One practical application is in reading old scores - there are facsimles of early music that are quite inexpensive (for example, the "Performers' Facsimiles" series by Broude Brothers) and include music that's available in no modern edition (the very nice Marpurg chorales, for ex.)

Weird clefs are like old spelling for Shakespeare - they slow you down, and that's a good thing. You do get better with practice; you don't get better without it.
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deWaverley

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostFri Jul 17, 2009 6:54 pm

gecko wrote:If you're a cellist, you can probably already read the tenor clef...


Ahaa...good point! OK, I rephrase that - "Of course if you are a Bass singer (and so, more used to reading the bass clef) you could read each note..."

deW
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BarryG

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostSat Jul 18, 2009 8:28 am

Thanks, G'Day, for your kind offer. I'll order from Paul's source (thank you, Paul) as soon as I've screened my current small stack of candidate pieces.

Barry Gerken
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jcfelice88keys

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostMon Jul 20, 2009 10:42 am

Hello All,

The original question in the title line was, "Any trick?"

I have read a lot of philosophy and opinions in this thread, but saw few actual tricks being disseminated.

This is the way I put my transpositional skills into practice with movable clefs (assuming one knows where "middle C" has been located via the arrowhead pointing to the desired line or space):

When one moves from a line to a line, or a space to a space in musical notation, you "skip" a letter in notation, either up or down.
When one moves from a line to a space, or a space to a line in musical notation, you go to the adjacent letter note, either up or down.


Of course, this is just the beginning of transposition, because you need to be aware of the key signature. In the case of movable clefs as they pertain to organ literature, one usually sees only a single note at a time in the staff with the movable clef.

Example: Imagine, if you will, that the movable clef has the arrowhead pointing to the middle line (third up from the bottom). This is defined as Middle C for purposes of this example. Now, keeping Middle C in mind as a reference, what is the note of the fourth line? the second line? Answers: The fourth line is two letters up from C --> E, and the second line is two letters down from C --> A. In the same example, what is the first space (the bottom space)? Well, it is a G because it is one letter value down from the second line, which you already found was an A.

This method does take a little practice getting to work for you, but I hope this helps. By the way, this is the way I teach my newer students how to read standard G clef and F clef musical notation in the first place.

Cheers,

Joe
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GDay

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Re: Dealing with C-clef? Any trick?

PostMon Jul 20, 2009 11:42 am

Point taken, Joe.

I suppose I learned the clefs like most other people; in the "treble" clef the lines spelled EGBDF- Every Good Boy Deserves Fun, or Fudge, or Favours. And the spaces spelled FACE (the guitar strings are EADGBE- Every American Daughter Gets Babies Early). When I learned the "bass" clef, I mentally shifted the FACE down a space (EGBDF was too much fer me to shift mentally) that didn't cover everything of course, but the other notes were easier to locate using FACE. Perhaps the same "movable" FACE could be usefull when dealing with the C clef.
G'Day

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