Seeking advice on how to learn by myself...

Hello Pat,

Thanks for your kind words. I am pleased to have been able to offer some help. My professional background is in music education. As an organist and occasional teacher of organ I have in the last 30 years taught quite a few adult beginners. Often these are the students who many organ teachers don't want to work with. As such I have become familiar with quite a few published organ methods.

Another post to this list has mentioned a book by David Sanger. When it first appeared, that book was a breath of fresh air and a significant step in the right direction, as just about every organ method before it was based upon the assumption that all organ students begin life as brilliant pianists. However it falls short in what teachers know as "scope and sequence". It appears to start out well, then the exercises become erratic in the order and the way in which various skills are introduced. Then suddenly the book dives into much harder stuff, leaving a rather big gap for the students to somehow fill in on their own. As a matter of some amusement, I was surprised to see in this book a photograph of feet on pedals, showing a player wearing entirely the wrong style of shoes for pedalling - with single-piece sole without a separate raised heel! Still, this book does have it's good points. Its repertoire section, like that of the Leopold book, aims to provide a balance between the old and the new. On the technical front, the pedal scales in Sanger are excellent. They consistently allow the player to prepare the position of the feet for the next note while playing the current note. Good pedalling is really a two-stage process - first moving into position over the note ahead of playing it, and second pressing it down at the right time. Considering how good this part of the book is, I still find it astounding that such a poor photograph of feet on pedals got past the proofreading stage!

The First Organ Book which you have ordered from Leupold is in my opinion way ahead of Sanger and many other organ methods. It is also very recent and continues to be revised and improved. The latest edition which I have is the 2nd, dating from 2004, but according to the website this book is now into its 3rd edition and that's probably the one you'll get. The sections on technique are well graded, the explanations are clear, and the musical examples are well chosen and appealing. Numerous contemporary composers were commissioned to contribute to this book, and their works placed alongside others of earlier periods and styles give a good balance between the old and the new.

The book by Grover is not an organ method. It's a small book filled with lots of advice about good practicing skills.

I wish you every success with your studies!

Regards,

Andrew

Bonjour Pat,

Humm.. je n'ai pas vraiment d'autres façons d'accepter des paiements; je suis surpris que tu aies eu des problèmes avec Paypal. Bah... ce n'est pas grave... au moins je sais que tu avais l'intention de faire un don!

Amuse toi bien!
François
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Humm... I don't really have other way to accept payments; I'm a bit surprise you had problems with Paypal. Anyway... that's ok... at least I know you had the intention to make a donation

Have fun
François

Actually the problem dates back 2-3 years now. Everything was working fine till I received an email from PayPal informing me that further to frauds on my account, it had been blocked - though neither my credit card account nor my PayPal account did show anything abnormal. I managed to go through the procedure to restore the account - quite a sluggish and unclear procedure btw - which proved to be unsuccessful to restore my account to normal. PayPal started to request more and more documents to prove I was the genuine author of my account, and I decided to give up when they started to ask for a copy of my bank account statement and a copy of my passport... I requested then to close the account, which proved to be impossible as well - the account had to be active in order to close it, no way to stop it while blocked...

I shared my experience with other PayPal users I knew on the various forums I had subscribed to, and was surprised to realise I was not the only one to face problems. From the professional side (websites that were using PayPal to receive payments) I also discovered they were facing problems as well.

But again, it was 2-3 years ago. Maybe the situation has been rectified since then. The point is I had so much energy wasted with those guys that I am not ready to give another try.

Anyway, if there is no way to pay for the book, I shall not use it.

Thanks François

Hi John!

Obviously nothing beats hands on tuition from an accomplished teacher,

I fully agree with you! But both my current location and my complicated professional life do not make this as a workable solution for me...

but you could also try
'Play the Organ' by David Sangar and 'Making Music on the Organ' by Peter Hurford (both available from Amazon.com)
They're both a bit pompous, but I've found them very useful - especially for fingering and articulation in Bach.

Unfortunately the order with Amazon may not be edited any longer, thus preventing me to add your recommendation... I'll keep it in mind for a next order!

Thanks a lot for your suggestion!

Hi Andrew

Thanks for your kind words. I am pleased to have been able to offer some help. My professional background is in music education. As an organist and occasional teacher of organ I have in the last 30 years taught quite a few adult beginners. Often these are the students who many organ teachers don't want to work with. As such I have become familiar with quite a few published organ methods.

I would have loved to have a teacher like you! You give a comprehensive yet very clea explanation an comment on each of the points you are detailing... This is the way of learning I do prefer - not being to the point only, but also understanding the context and/or environment as well...

Another post to this list has mentioned a book by David Sanger. When it first appeared, that book was a breath of fresh air and a significant step in the right direction, as just about every organ method before it was based upon the assumption that all organ students begin life as brilliant pianists. However it falls short in what teachers know as "scope and sequence". It appears to start out well, then the exercises become erratic in the order and the way in which various skills are introduced. Then suddenly the book dives into much harder stuff, leaving a rather big gap for the students to somehow fill in on their own. As a matter of some amusement, I was surprised to see in this book a photograph of feet on pedals, showing a player wearing entirely the wrong style of shoes for pedalling - with single-piece sole without a separate raised heel! Still, this book does have it's good points. Its repertoire section, like that of the Leopold book, aims to provide a balance between the old and the new. On the technical front, the pedal scales in Sanger are excellent. They consistently allow the player to prepare the position of the feet for the next note while playing the current note. Good pedalling is really a two-stage process - first moving into position over the note ahead of playing it, and second pressing it down at the right time. Considering how good this part of the book is, I still find it astounding that such a poor photograph of feet on pedals got past the proofreading stage!

It sounds interesting to me... Unfortunately, I have seen Joe's recommendation too late to order the book.

Being mature, being on my own, and having been through (electronic) organ lessons for a couple of years,I have at least the advantage of being able to pick in a method what I think can be interesting and dropping what is too difficult or not clear enough to me...

By the way, I was totally surprised to realise I could play easierly than expected, though I had stopped the organ practice for decades… In a way, the intensive use of a computer keyboard in the meantime must have been of some help (I can type very quickly if needed be... with my ten fingers). It might be different when I shall resume pedalboard playing though!

The First Organ Book which you have ordered from Leupold is in my opinion way ahead of Sanger and many other organ methods. It is also very recent and continues to be revised and improved. The latest edition which I have is the 2nd, dating from 2004, but according to the website this book is now into its 3rd edition and that's probably the one you'll get. The sections on technique are well graded, the explanations are clear, and the musical examples are well chosen and appealing. Numerous contemporary composers were commissioned to contribute to this book, and their works placed alongside others of earlier periods and styles give a good balance between the old and the new.

That sounds even more appealing… I just can’t wait to receive it…

The book by Grover is not an organ method. It's a small book filled with lots of advice about good practicing skills.

Thanks for the explanation

I wish you every success with your studies!

Thanks again Andrew, I really do appreciate the time you are spending to share your vast knowledge with me !!!

Helllo Pat,

Thank you again for your kind words. You are the type of student I would really enjoy teaching, and I can't say that of the some of the students who over the years have come my way. I have gone through different periods of alternately teaching organ and then not. These days I am not doing any, and I have to say that the last time I did they all wore me out! The students in that instance all came to be from the same church, which was sponsoring their lessons in order to build up their supply of organists. Good, you might think! Not so! The old adage that people don't appreciate what they get for free was so true. They were such a slack, lazy unmotivated lot! They weren't paying for the lessons so they didn't care, and most of them would turn up from one lesson to the next having not been near an organ since the previous lesson, then they wondered why they weren't making much progress. Not at all what I recall from my own early days at the organ - I was down at the church at every opportunity. Wish I could do that much practice these days!

You are keen and motivated, which puts you well on the path to success with resuming your organ studies. Good luck!

By the way, I've just re-read this thread and saw again your comment about PayPal. Just thought I'd mention that I have had almost the same experience with them. A couple of years ago they alerted me to some fraudulent transactions made on my credit card, not long after I'd bought some Hauptwerk sample sets from several different suppliers. It seems that in at least one of those transactions my information was skimmed. Four bogus transactions totalling just over AU$800 appeared on my account in the space of a couple of days from various overseas locations which I had never visited. Eventually PayPal cancelled these transactions and refunded my money, but it was not an easy or quick process. However, it was after then that I struck more trouble, exactly along the lines you have described. I had already cancelled the credit card in question, but PayPal then sought the new card number plus a heap of other quite detailed personal information in order for me to prove who I was, in order for them to unfreeze my account which had been frozen by them since the fraud was discovered. I wouldn't supply this information, and instead moved to close my account, which they wouldn't allow to happen. I've recently tried again to close it, but it's still frozen unless I sell my soul to them, so the stand-off continues. Now if I need to spend money on an overseas purchase such as more Hauptwerk sample sets I use methods other than PayPal. It's very helpful when sites such as Milan Digital, from whom I've bought a number of sample sets now, have their own secure credit card facility. If a seller doesn't have this means at their disposal I have on several occasions successfully made a direct funds transfer from my bank to the account of the recipient. It costs a bit to do this, but it puts me in control.

Regards,

Andrew

Thank you again for your kind words. You are the type of student I would really enjoy teaching,

Too bad we cannot meet... A good mutual understanding and confidence is so precious when it comes to teaching / learning!

and I can't say that of the some of the students who over the years have come my way. I have gone through different periods of alternately teaching organ and then not. These days I am not doing any, and I have to say that the last time I did they all wore me out! The students in that instance all came to be from the same church, which was sponsoring their lessons in order to build up their supply of organists. Good, you might think! Not so! The old adage that people don't appreciate what they get for free was so true. They were such a slack, lazy unmotivated lot! They weren't paying for the lessons so they didn't care, and most of them would turn up from one lesson to the next having not been near an organ since the previous lesson, then they wondered why they weren't making much progress.

My mum was paying for my classes, which were free to me. And I must confess sometimes I came to a session without having done my part. No excuse at my end, as the organ was at home, and the organ lessons were done as per my request!

I guess it must be hell to teach students that do not care... especially when it comes to a musical subject, which should more be driven by passion than just education requirement...

Not at all what I recall from my own early days at the organ - I was down at the church at every opportunity. Wish I could do that much practice these days!

The big difference between your time – that may not be so different from mine - and the present time lies in the difference of available activities I guess… together with different values...

You are keen and motivated, which puts you well on the path to success with resuming your organ studies. Good luck!

Many thanks!

By the way, I've just re-read this thread and saw again your comment about PayPal. Just thought I'd mention that I have had almost the same experience with them. A couple of years ago they alerted me to some fraudulent transactions made on my credit card, not long after I'd bought some Hauptwerk sample sets from several different suppliers. It seems that in at least one of those transactions my information was skimmed. Four bogus transactions totalling just over AU$800 appeared on my account in the space of a couple of days from various overseas locations which I had never visited. Eventually PayPal cancelled these transactions and refunded my money, but it was not an easy or quick process. However, it was after then that I struck more trouble, exactly along the lines you have described. I had already cancelled the credit card in question, but PayPal then sought the new card number plus a heap of other quite detailed personal information in order for me to prove who I was, in order for them to unfreeze my account which had been frozen by them since the fraud was discovered. I wouldn't supply this information, and instead moved to close my account, which they wouldn't allow to happen. I've recently tried again to close it, but it's still frozen unless I sell my soul to them, so the stand-off continues. Now if I need to spend money on an overseas purchase such as more Hauptwerk sample sets I use methods other than PayPal. It's very helpful when sites such as Milan Digital, from whom I've bought a number of sample sets now, have their own secure credit card facility. If a seller doesn't have this means at their disposal I have on several occasions successfully made a direct funds transfer from my bank to the account of the recipient. It costs a bit to do this, but it puts me in control.

I was so happy when it came to purchasing Anloo to be able to do it with another site http://www.moneybooker.com. Though, to be quite frank, it looks so much alike http://www.paypal.com I am not sure it is not a sister site!

Hello,

It may be hard to find an organ teacher in the middle of the desert, however this is the internet age. Our forum member Adri gives organ lessons over the internet (you send recordings, he comments) for a modest fee. You can try contacting him if you do want to have organ lessons.

yours,

Sander

It may be hard to find an organ teacher in the middle of the desert, however this is the internet age. Our forum member Adri gives organ lessons over the internet (you send recordings, he comments) for a modest fee. You can try contacting him if you do want to have organ lessons.

Hi Sander, thanks for the suggestion!

I have seen this add, and for whatever reason I was more thinking it was an interactive session through webcam and interaction with the teacher. I had not considered it at all due to the time issue (we are on GMT+4 in the UAE)...

I shall give a thought to this possibility, thanks for the clarification on the process...

Hello Pat,

Hopefully you have had your new organ music for a while now. How's it going?

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Thanks for following it up!

Actually, I am working in two directions for the time being -

- Flor Peeters - to exercise and "warm up" at the beginning of each session. It's quite nice, as the exercises have been set so to have an increasing difficulty, but this progression remains quite smooth for the time being.

- A French transcription of Bach's BWV147 Cantata "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" (I'm referring to it here) which I used to play decades ago, and that I'm trying to refresh... almost back to normal now, I shall need one or two months to do something with it. My main challenge for the time being is to play a 10th with my left hand!

I should be able to give more attention to my practising soon - I just purchased yesterday the computer to be dedicated to Hauptwerk, and I should receive by the end of the month a pedalboard so my feet will be able to work at last. Then I shall be in a position to have more than just a look to the other books I have also purchased. My next target will be to play more - currently I can practice half an hour daily only.

Thanks again for caring!

Patrick

Good luck Patrick. That pedalboard will make a huge difference!

Andrew

Thanks Andrew!