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CODM from SF2

Using the CODM to create your own organ definitions, exchange CODM organ definitions, ...

CODM from SF2

Postby Gedact8 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:34 pm

Is it possible to create a CODM file from samples contained in a SF2 file? I have a few SF2 files that have a fairly large selection of organ sample sounds and I am wondering if it is possible to use them in a CODM. This could allow for experimenting with sound fonts created from wave generators in an attempt to simulate a vintage electronic organ such as an Allen S14 or TC-1.

Thanks,
LH.
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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby ggoode_sa » Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:07 am

Hi,

The CODM (Custom Organ Design Module) references wave files - so if you wanted to use samples from a soundfont you'd first either export them from the soundfont, or create recordings of the rank from soundfont - this may create a better result as the soundfont has attack sustain delay and release paramters for each note, so the exported wave file from a soundfont might not sound like what you hear when playing the note.

Once you have your wave file for each note (or each second note, third note, or whatever) from the soundfont, then you must name them in the HW expected format of 036-C.wav, 037-C#.wav, - 096-C.wav, etc. You must also add loop markers for the sustain section, and release markers. There are various tools that help you do this.

It might be simpler to experiment in another organ sampler platform that supports soundfonts natively.

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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby csw900 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:06 am

Hi
Graham wrote:
"It might be simpler to experiment in another organ sampler platform that supports soundfonts natively."

It definately would be simpler. My organ eplayOrgan (free download from my website) uses .sf2 sound fonts and in my opinion these fonts can sound just as good as HW sample sets. Also .sf2 has the advantage of loading at least 100 times faster than HW samples. They can also be easily edited using viena (also free).

Several years ago I asked the same question in reverse as I was interested in converting HW samples to .sf2 format. The answer was similar to Graham's; Yes it can be done but there is no easy way.

It is about time someone wrote a bit of software to do these conversions - there is nothing difficult - it is just a matter of understanding the file formats in detail and translating them. The .sf2 file specification is freely available and I suspect the HW format could be deduced just by looking at the files with a suitable audio editor.

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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby Gedact8 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:39 pm

I don't seem to be able to split sound fonts or swap them with another sound font with a lot of software, the only program that has let me do this has been Carla, however this requires individual loading of each rank one at a time. I did find a program that lets you create sound fonts from .wav files (Polyphone) but not the other way around.

I assume the lack of cross compatibility between HW and .sf2 is due to quality, with HW using high resolution recordings and .sf2 being compact and quick to load.

I have also been attempting to create and edit sounds in Audacity to simulate some of the stops on an analog organ, however this seems to cause horrible distortion despite the fact I have used it before for editing without an issue (possibly something incompatible with AMD?) so it doesn't look like I will be able to replicate the sound a TC series while recordings still exist to use as reference to compare the generated tone with (YouTube videos seem to be disappearing like crazy recently). The only other option would be to build an actual tone generator circuit with a variable pitch to get a clear recording but unfortunately I missed out on electronics tech at high school so I have no idea how and I presume the type of transistors needed for tone circuits are probably going to be expensive to order since they are not production built anymore.
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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby csw900 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:59 am

Hi Gedakt8

You stated in your original post that you were trying to simulate a vintage (around 1958) Allen S-14 or TC-1. I currently have no detailed knowledge of these particular organs but do have a lot of knowledge about simulating organs in general.

There is no doubt in my mind that using .sf2 fonts and editing them with viena is the easiest route. You also need to be using a computer with Windows operating system. I suspect you may be misguidedly trying to work with a Mac (you mentioned polyphone - which is rubbish compared to viena). eplayOrgan is able to simulate almost any organ just by entering appropriate data into a few dialog boxes. It can use up to four different .sf2 sound fonts simultaneously and can work with banked sound fonts. It comes with several different organ sound fonts and around 50 simulated organ designs. You could immediately use one of these designs as a starting point in your simulation and have your simulation working after a few hours.

You also mentioned Audacity, which compares very unfavourably with Adobe Audition for editing and looping sound files. Audition has what they call loopology for experimenting with audio loops. (You can probably find Audacity on the web and download it free.)

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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby Gedact8 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:46 pm

I tried loading different sound fonts in eplayOrgan but I keep getting "unable to load Soundfont file" if I use any other than the original, I will have another play about with it and see what I can get it to do. I am using Windows 10 (64-bit) at the moment.

I have tried using Synthfont but I found most features appeared to be unavailable (which I assume was due to missing hardware plugins), support videos on this have been rather unhelpful. From what I have read it also takes years of study to be qualified to use pro voicing tools. The only other option would be to record a working analog transistor organ. However I have only found two here in the UK, one was replaced by a Digital organ when the speakers went bad on it and the other is in a rather poor condition in a shed that I no longer have access to.

I was wondering the other day if it was possible to build a pipe organ out of PVC pipes, I might try experimenting with that and maybe record that if it sounds anywhere near decent (then add octaves in the simulation to get a bigger sound out of it).

Thanks,
LH.
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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby OrganoPleno » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:55 pm

Gedact8 wrote:I was wondering the other day if it was possible to build a pipe organ out of PVC pipes, I might try experimenting with that and maybe record that if it sounds anywhere near decent (then add octaves in the simulation to get a bigger sound out of it).


Sure, Dude, you can totally do that, just you have to whack on the pipes instead of blowing through them. Here's how it's done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Dc97Bvm98

Be sure to watch to the end... his final "hit" is the best!
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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby csw900 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:07 am

OrganoPleno:

I liked the plastic organ but noticed the organist was unable to play chords and was not using his feet. I think the organ needs a bit more work before it becomes popular.

Gedakt8:

You MUST insert the EXACT FULL PATH to your sound fonts into the dialogs otherwise they will not be found. Alternatively the sound fonts MUST be in the same folder as the eplayOrgan.exe executable file.

I have had no difficulty loading other sound fonts. But note that you must not leave any of the sound font edit boxes empty or you will get an error (which you can ignore). I suggest you contact me by email if you are still having difficulty.

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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby NickNelson » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:10 am

Gedact8 wrote:I was wondering the other day if it was possible to build a pipe organ out of PVC pipes


I think one problem would be the limited diameters available. The result of this would be a change of scale. As the notes rise the pipes became shorter and relatively 'fatter' changing the timbre of the sound. I guess if you had a sufficiently large oven one could heat the tubes until pliable, then inflate them with a bicycle pump to change the diameter according to need.

Many years ago I considered making organ pipes out of baked bean cans soldered together.

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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby GrahamH » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:00 am

Many years ago I considered making organ pipes out of baked bean cans soldered together.


Hope you weren't also considering using the baked beans as a wind source … :shock:

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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby GrahamH » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:21 am

A number of years ago, before I converted to Hauptwerk, I made a 3-manual 60-stop VPO that used soundfonts made from .wav files created using Klangsynth.
A friend reckoned it sounded better than his old analogue electronic organ.
I can't imagine why anyone who has experienced Hauptwerk would want to simulate an old toaster - but I see Klangsynth can still be downloaded from here:
http://jorgan-home.de/external_mirrors/milestones.me.uk/utilities.html

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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby Gedact8 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:06 pm

csw900 wrote:Gedakt8:

You MUST insert the EXACT FULL PATH to your sound fonts into the dialogs otherwise they will not be found. Alternatively the sound fonts MUST be in the same folder as the eplayOrgan.exe executable file.

I have had no difficulty loading other sound fonts. But note that you must not leave any of the sound font edit boxes empty or you will get an error (which you can ignore). I suggest you contact me by email if you are still having difficulty.
csw900


I am trying to configure the stops but it isn't recognising any address ID on the .sf2 file, it's as if the file is completely empty.

Something strange I've found is eplay doesn't seem to want to work with it as it seems to direct the output to Microsoft Synth rather than to eplayOrgan.

Edit: Unable to post screenshots due to formatting.

Thanks,
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Re: CODM from SF2

Postby csw900 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:42 am

Hi Gedakt8

eplayOrgan has its own built in sequencers and synthesizers . The organ's midi output should be set to "None".

You appear to have got your font loaded but I do not understand your current problem. Your font seems to be a bit weird. I will investigate, but it will be easier for both of us if I have a copy of the font. Can I download it, if so where. If not please send me a copy as an email attachment.

We will get complaints if you continue your discussion in this forum - please continue by email, my address is in "About" on my website.

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