It is currently Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:55 am


Slowing Enclosure opening

Using the CODM to create your own organ definitions, exchange CODM organ definitions, ...
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

chuckstanley

Member

  • Posts: 8
  • Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:45 pm

Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 10:15 am

I am interested in slowing down the speed at which the enclosure opens. I am using Hauptwerk with an existing pipe organ and the real shutters don't open as quickly as the modeled enclosure.

The EnableShutterInteriaModel states that "the inertial model parameters are configured automatically", which create a "slightly delayed response to movements of the pedal." Can someone point me to the area in the generated ODF where these parameters are located and what I can modify to slow things down?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
chuck
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 6555
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 10:39 am

I've found even without being used with a real pipe organ, the expression pedal's response is a bit too quick. Couldn't there be a response "control" incorporated in a future version of Hauptwerk? Probably a minor request, but in the category of being more realistic?

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 12149
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 10:51 am

Hello Chuck,

chuckstanley wrote:I am interested in slowing down the speed at which the enclosure opens. I am using Hauptwerk with an existing pipe organ and the real shutters don't open as quickly as the modeled enclosure.

The EnableShutterInteriaModel states that "the inertial model parameters are configured automatically", which create a "slightly delayed response to movements of the pedal." Can someone point me to the area in the generated ODF where these parameters are located and what I can modify to slow things down?


There's no officially supported way to do that. Unofficially (and briefly), you could look at the two ContinuousControlLinkage.InertiaModel... attributes in the generated 'full-format' ODF (with ODF XML compacting turned off). I hope that helps, but I'll have to leave that one to you (or other forum users) if needed.

engrssc wrote:I've found even without being used with a real pipe organ, the expression pedal's response is a bit too quick. Couldn't there be a response "control" incorporated in a future version of Hauptwerk? Probably a minor request, but in the category of being more realistic?


Hello Ed,

The way linkages behave are defined by each sample set producer within the organ definition, and the ODF's linkage topology can be arbitrarily complex. It wouldn't be possible for a user setting reliably to be able to override that ODF behaviour in general, I'm afraid -- sorry. I'd suggest contacting the maker of the sample set if you feel the behaviour should be tweaked for a particular sample set.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 6555
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 11:11 am

Thanks for that. I long felt there is a difference between some features of commercially built instruments (sometimes negatively called toasters) and those of real pipe organs. This came into focus recently when an organist "auditioned" one of our installations. Being as he has mostly always played real pipe organ, I noted his comment. Basically saying altho it sounds very much like real pipes, there are some things that "feel" different. One of those being the expression pedal response.

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 12149
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 11:22 am

Hello Ed,

Compared to a real organ's swell pedal, I think perhaps the single biggest difference to a conventional MIDI expression pedal in terms of 'feel' is the lack of physical resistance in the latter. Pipe organ swell pedals often need quite a bit of force to move (at least the ones I've used). Perhaps your organist was referring to that.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

ldeutsch

Member

  • Posts: 472
  • Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:02 pm
  • Location: Chatsworth, California, USA

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 1:09 pm

Chuck,

You might be able to simulate this delay in an expression pedal outride of Hauptwerk. On the Mac, I often use software called "MIDI Pipe" to pre-filter MIDI data between the organ and Hauptwerk. MIDI Pipe includes a delay filter which is supposed to add a fixed delay time to data on a specified MIDI channel. This might work for you. There is similar software available for Windows machines.

Les
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 6555
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 1:36 pm

mdyde wrote:Compared to a real organ's swell pedal, I think perhaps the single biggest difference to a conventional MIDI expression pedal in terms of 'feel' is the lack of physical resistance in the latter. Pipe organ swell pedals often need quite a bit of force to move (at least the ones I've used). Perhaps your organist was referring to that.


No that wasn't it. We can easily adjust the physical resistance and this organ's expr pedal have quite a bit of resistance. The fast response he referred to "just like an Allen as the effect you hear isn't gradual but instantaneous". As was mentioned by Chuck, real swell shades have a bit of a lag esp when the swell shades operate sequentially vs all together as a unit.

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

NickNelson

Member

  • Posts: 833
  • Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:31 am
  • Location: Leeds, UK

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 1:46 pm

engrssc wrote: As was mentioned real swell shades have a bit of a lag.


Yes, this is probably true for pneumatic and electric servo swell systems, but probably not for purely mechanical (ie older) systems where, within reason, the more effort you put in the quicker the response.

Also the effect is not really 'lag' as such but a combination of the resolution (number of distinct steps between 'open' and 'shut') and response rate (how quickly the system can move from one state to a different one. I dare say all this could be modelled if there was sufficient interest.

Nick
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 6555
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 2:07 pm

NickNelson wrote:I dare say all this could be modelled if there was sufficient interest.


My point, but I wouldn't want to bet on enough interest to warrant the extra work.

Rgds,
Ed
Offline

voet

Member

  • Posts: 28
  • Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:06 pm
  • Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 2:25 pm

One option that occurs to me would be to have Hauptwerk swell stops routed to speakers installed in the swell division of the organ and then disable the Hauptwerk swell pedal.
Offline
User avatar

IainStinson

Member

  • Posts: 1001
  • Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:08 pm
  • Location: NW England, UK

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 3:17 pm

The Lavender Audio St Mary le Bow sample set offers an alternative programming for the swell pedal. By the way some of the Lavender Audio organs include a delay in the stop “engagement” which I find is much more realistic....
The Stop/Coupler action delay control inserts a short delay in the operation of all stops and couplers. This attempts to replicate the real life inertia of such systems, whereby the operation of a particular stop at the console doesn't result in the instantaneous sounding of its rank of pipes. The delay is a few hundred milliseconds. Below this control is one to alter the response of the swell pedal. On many virtual organ consoles, the swell pedal will generate MIDI controller messages linearly as the pedal is opened or closed. However, the effect of a swell box being opened tends not to be linear; rather, the greatest change of volume occurs just as the shutters are first opening with the rate of change decreasing as the box is opened further. The Swell Pedal Alternate Response facility attempts to model this effect. There are additional controls for the extended set: firstly
(from the Lavender Audio manual)


Using physical expression pedals with higher inertia also helps with the swell pedal.

I like Les’ suggestion about delaying the midi commands for the expression controls.

Iain
Offline

chuckstanley

Member

  • Posts: 8
  • Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:45 pm

Re: Slowing Enclosure opening

PostFri Jun 26, 2020 4:25 pm

mdyde wrote:There's no officially supported way to do that. Unofficially (and briefly), you could look at the two ContinuousControlLinkage.InertiaModel... attributes in the generated 'full-format' ODF (with ODF XML compacting turned off). I hope that helps, but I'll have to leave that one to you (or other forum users) if needed.


Thanks, Martin! Adjusting those values does affect the speed of the shades and I'm getting closer to my goal. However, my understanding of physics is limited to say the least, so I really don't know what I'm doing.

Is there anyone out there who could explain, in simple terms, the meaning of these two parameters and how they would affect the movement of the shades:
PostiveAcceleratingCoeff
PostiveDampingCoeff

thanks to all!
chuck

Return to Custom Organ Design Module (CODM)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest