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Stop Swap

Using the CODM to create your own organ definitions, exchange CODM organ definitions, ...

Stop Swap

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:24 pm

Hello all,

This is my first time delving into this section of the forum and I will say up front I have never attempted nor do I have a clue as to what I'm doing in the area of working with the CODM, or if it's something I should even attempt, I would like to learn at least the basics, so here goes.

I have one sample set (Forcalquier) that as it comes has 2 Trompettes on the great which has never made a lot of sense to me. I would like to attempt to move one of them to the postive. Can anyone give me an idea of where to start?

Would I want to open the organ in a new instance of HW, use the custom organ module and build an organ from the ground up, or other?

Also, if I load it in a different instance and work with it there, I am assuming it will still load and open / operate as it origianally did in the instance I've been using the set in?

Pretty much clueless here and perhaps some of what I've written is misguided as well. Some advice as to the best approach would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Marc
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby mdyde » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:57 pm

Hello Marc,

If you want a different specification for the organ you would need to create a new organ definition for it from scratch, using the CODM.

It makes no difference whether you load it in a different Hauptwerk configuration (desktop short-cut), since the result would be a completely independent organ anyway.

Start by studying the CODM user's guide (on the Help menu in Hauptwerk) and looking at the example CODM organ definitions provided (which are covered in the user guide).

(The CODM is designed to fairly be easy to use for people with a technical inclination, but creating a complex organ definition from scratch is still quite involved and technical, and it might take a few weeks to master the CODM format.)
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Stop Swap

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:45 pm

Hello Martin,

Thanks for the reply. So the short answer is, swaping a stop from one division to another is not going to be a make a few minor changes 10 minute operation, and you're ready to go.

I doubt I'm up to the task of creating a completely custom ODF, probably beyond my skills but I will take a look at the CODM guide to see how much of it I follow. Maybe I will just be happy and live with those 2 trompettes on the great after all! :D

Thanks again,

Marc
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby mdyde » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:28 pm

Thanks for the reply. So the short answer is, swaping a stop from one division to another is not going to be a make a few minor changes 10 minute operation, and you're ready to go.


Correct!
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:55 pm

Thanks!

Back to the drawing board. :|

Marc
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby Mike 353 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:54 pm

If you can find a stop on the Choir manual that you would be willing to swap to the Great, just swap the samples from one folder to the other, then reload the organ . I know that's not considered kosher, but it works.

If you decide to do this, first copy both folders to some other place on your hard drive (My Documents, for example), so that you don't accidentally delete them.
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby josq » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:13 pm

mdyde wrote:
Thanks for the reply. So the short answer is, swaping a stop from one division to another is not going to be a make a few minor changes 10 minute operation, and you're ready to go.


Correct!


Then I would like to propose that as an enhancement request. Ideally, you would just click and drag a stop from one division to another on the console screen.

We should especially be able to copy ranks between divisions. This would enormously enhance the possibilities even of a fairly small organ. It means for example that if you have a 2-manual organ with plenum and reeds only on one of the manuals, you can still enable plenum on one manual and (part of the) plenum + reeds on the other.

Also, per-rank octave and suboctave options would be very attractive.

I'm certain this is not a novel idea, the only thing is that you should not need the CODM complexities for that. So just another potential reason to look forward to Hauptwerk 5 ;)
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:51 pm

Hey guys,

One thing I did contemplate in this (and it would be an awesome enhancement option), is the idea mentioned here of some way of easily being able to select whatever stop a person wants and choose what division you want it in. Adding / borrowing stops from one division to another could also be interesting. An easy way of creating your own 200 stop organ! 8) How slick would that be? :wink: For some this might be viewed as somewhat of a scrapping of the original instrument, but I'm not all that much of a rigid purist if it's something that maybe works better for me or better helps me play a certain repertoire of music, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it as long as I can restore it to original.

Maybe like we can right click on the manuals or pedal now to auto-detect, in this case you right click on the stop and along with the auto-detect and voicing menus that currently pop up, there would also be a menu allowing you to go in and choose which division you want the stop in, if you just want to add it to the division, copy it to another division and keep it in it's original division as well, etc, etc. Is this possible or something that could easily be implemented? I don't know. Being I know zero about CODM and how the ODF are configured, I don't know if this is something that can easily be done or if it's more to it than we realize. From what I gather, it's not that simple and as Martin says, even a simple stop swap requires a custom CODM, so I assume there's more to it.

Great idea though.

Thanks,

Marc
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby engrssc » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:31 pm

Don't forget some ranks are enclosed, while others aren't. That adds hugely to to efforts surrounding the creation of a sample set I do believe.

From the real world, I remember, as part of a willingly but not knowing what I was getting into, volunteer to swap a few ranks in a T/O installation. What appeared at first glance to be a quick job, turned out to be many long hours and in the middle of summer when the theatre air conditioning was'nt running. :shock: Ask me if I would volunteer again. :roll: :mrgreen:

Rgds,
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:46 pm

Hi Ed,
How are you doing just to the south of us there in IL? Good I hope. All fine here in MN, 60's tomorrow! :D No A/C required (yet). With the resulting celebration though, you'd think we won the lottery of something!

Fortunately for the Forcalquier there are no enclosed divisions, but I can sure see where dealing with an enclosed division and wanting to move things around might really complicate things. :shock:

Marc
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Re: Stop Swap

Postby mdyde » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:43 am

Hello Jos/Marc,

Then I would like to propose that as an enhancement request. Ideally, you would just click and drag a stop from one division to another on the console screen.

We should especially be able to copy ranks between divisions. This would enormously enhance the possibilities even of a fairly small organ. It means for example that if you have a 2-manual organ with plenum and reeds only on one of the manuals, you can still enable plenum on one manual and (part of the) plenum + reeds on the other.

Also, per-rank octave and suboctave options would be very attractive.

I'm certain this is not a novel idea, the only thing is that you should not need the CODM complexities for that. So just another potential reason to look forward to Hauptwerk 5


One thing I did contemplate in this (and it would be an awesome enhancement option), is the idea mentioned here of some way of easily being able to select whatever stop a person wants and choose what division you want it in. Adding / borrowing stops from one division to another could also be interesting. An easy way of creating your own 200 stop organ! 8) How slick would that be? :wink: For some this might be viewed as somewhat of a scrapping of the original instrument, but I'm not all that much of a rigid purist if it's something that maybe works better for me or better helps me play a certain repertoire of music, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it as long as I can restore it to original.

Maybe like we can right click on the manuals or pedal now to auto-detect, in this case you right click on the stop and along with the auto-detect and voicing menus that currently pop up, there would also be a menu allowing you to go in and choose which division you want the stop in, if you just want to add it to the division, copy it to another division and keep it in it's original division as well, etc, etc. Is this possible or something that could easily be implemented?


Those aren't things that can be done in general, sorry. An organ definition can be extremely complex and defines many, many properties of the way the pipes, stops, ranks, wind system, tremulants, enclosures, etc. are connected and interact.

Whilst with some simple cases one rank could theoretically be swapped for another, there are a lot of sample sets that are much more complex, designed to model detailed behaviour and interaction of the various elements.

If you want to design or customise your own organ specification then you need to use the CODM - it's designed specifically for that purpose.

We do have logged as a longer-term enhancement request that we'd like to have a nice, easy graphical drag-and-drop-style interface for designing your own CODM organs, but Hauptwerk doesn't yet have that, so it currently involves editing XML files.
Best regards,
Martin.

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