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Reuse, borrow, unify results

Using the CODM to create your own organ definitions, exchange CODM organ definitions, ...

Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby jrball » Mon May 23, 2016 9:47 am

I found only one possible reference for how a borrowed stop sounds in HW documentation and forum search.

Suppose samples for rank A in Div D1 are reused or borrowed in Div D2 at the same pitch.
When HW loads this organ the documentation seems to say that two separate (but identical) samples sets are loaded into memory.

If so, then playing simultaneous C3 on both keyboards results in two independent samples being output to audio. making the audio a bit louder, maybe from different speakers, and maybe having phase differences.

Is this the way it works?
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Re: Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby B. Milan » Mon May 23, 2016 9:59 am

Hello,

Unification will definitely *not* load the sample twice, only once. If you play that same note on two different manuals then you will not hear it a second time. It works just as it would on a real organ that borrows pipes from another division. I am not sure where you are reading about this but that's definitely not the case that it will be loaded twice unless the producer specifically codes it to do so for a specific purpose in which case then it would consume more memory.
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Brett Milan
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http://www.milandigitalaudio.com
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Re: Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby jrball » Mon May 23, 2016 10:19 am

Thank you.
Page 71 of the Creating Sample Sets manual mentions "loaded multiple times":

"Although none of these are strict requirements for Hauptwerk (samples can be shared between virtual pipes but there is no saving in memory since they are still loaded multiple times), they are very strong recommendations in order that the resulting sample set sounds as realistic as possible".
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Re: Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby mdyde » Tue May 24, 2016 5:09 am

[I've moved the topic here, since my understanding is that you're referring to creating organ definitions, rather than using existing sample sets.]

If you're creating an organ definition of your own (whether in the Custom Organ Design Module or otherwise), and you create two pipe ranks that both specify the same samples, then:

- You aren't actually 'borrowing'/'unifying' -- you're just creating two independent pipe ranks (even if they happen to identical sample files), and:

- The samples would be loaded twice because the ranks would be independent.

If you do actually want to a stop to borrow/unify (whether in full, or just for part of its compass) from another stop, then you would just make both Stop objects specify the same Rank object via their StopRank objects. I.e. you would have only one Rank object (so the samples would only load/sound once), but you would use the StopRank table to attach the rank to both stops. The StopRank table is a many-to-many join table specifically to allow borrowing/unification to be implemented easily.
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Re: Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby Doug S. » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:53 pm

Can you turn such a second use of a sample from an 8 foot pitch into a 16 foot stop, and if so, what compromise will result?
Thanks,
Doug
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Re: Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby mdyde » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:26 am

Doug S. wrote:Can you turn such a second use of a sample from an 8 foot pitch into a 16 foot stop, and if so, what compromise will result?
Thanks,
Doug


Hello Doug,

Are you referring to unifying a single virtual rank so that it can be played from stops of various pitches (as would be the case in a theatre, for example), or are you referring to using the same set of samples to create additional completely-independent virtual ranks?

Either is perfectly possible, but the latter will compromise realism and quality because the samples would inherently be played at pitches significantly different from those at which they were recorded. For example, if you had a 61-note 8-foot set of samples and you wanted to make a 61-note 16-foot virtual rank from them then each sample would need to play at half of its original speed, meaning that the attack/decay/transient characteristics would sound very different (much longer/slower), and it would also lack high frequency definition (since it would effectively be playing at half of its recorded sample rate, e.g. 24 kHz for a 48 kHz sample).
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Re: Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby Doug S. » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:13 am

Thanks Martin,
I'd like to convert a 16 Subbass into a 32 foot.
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Re: Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby mdyde » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:19 am

Thanks, Doug.

In that case your options would be:

- Load the samples as a separate virtual rank and let Hauptwerk re-pitch them down an octave (which would involve compromises in realism and quality as discussed), at least for the bottom octave. Or:

- Re-pitch the samples manually in an audio editor, which has advantages because you could use a time-invariant pitch-shift and then potentially also edit them to make them sound more realistic at their new pitches (e.g. with EQs and/or envelope shaping). Or:

- (Best of all) use a different set of samples from a real 32' rank.
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Re: Reuse, borrow, unify results

Postby Doug S. » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:55 am

Thanks Martin,
I was just wondering if there might be a viable alternative to your last recommendation.
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