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Using the CODM to create your own organ definitions, exchange CODM organ definitions, ...

Re: HW Database

Postby wurlitzerwilly » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:07 pm

kiwiplant wrote:Was wondering if there is a way to use PostgreSQL with HW instead of MySQL. PostgreSQL uses a BSD license instead of GPL license.

MySQL looks like it would cost lots of money to buy a license for and then some kind of extra editing tools too. Hard to justify this expense and complexity to change a few ODF exclusive items for an organ.

How much does MySQL use for HW cost? I don't see a price listed anywhere. Is it purchased from Sun for $600.00 or from Hauptwerk?

Thanks,
Paul

One thing that is worth considering is that it would likely not be a matter of changing "a few ODF exclusive items for an organ".
Unless the ODF was unencrypted, you would not be able to alter it in any way, with or without MySQL. For a licensed sample set you would have to define a complete ODF from scratch and just use the encrypted samples, where this is allowed.
So, the expense of a MySQL licence would perhaps be good value after all. :)
I believe that Reiner of Pipeloops has written his own scripts to allow a ease of building an ODF. He may be willing to sell them to you. Failing that, if he has time he is extremely helpful and may be able to write an ODF for you, but I would not imagine that a one-off ODF would be cheap.

Regards,

Alan.
Regards,

Alan.
(Paramount Organ Works)
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Re: HW Database

Postby B. Milan » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:22 pm

kiwiplant wrote:Wondering how this turned out with MySQL & HW?


Apologies for the delay. We should have some information on this topic this coming week.
Regards,
Brett Milan
http://www.hauptwerk.com
http://www.milandigitalaudio.com
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Re: HW Database

Postby B. Milan » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:25 pm

Hello,

We've gotten some updates regarding the MYSQL licensing and the following email between us and Oracle (MySQL) states that anyone wanting to use the MySQL database in conjunction with Hauptwerk requires a commercial license. If anyone requires this license to be used with Hauptwerk they would need to contact us to arrange for us to purchase this license on their behalf, end users may not purchase the license directly from MySQL as this is in violation of their licensing according to the statement we received.

We understand that some users may not agree to this and that some portions of the MySQL website seem to contradict some of the statements below, however we cannot be held liable for any potential license violations and must to adhere to the latest statements directly from Oracle, thus if you would prefer to continue inquiring about these licensing arrangements we would kindly ask you to take it up directly with MySQL as there is nothing more we are able to do and have aked as clearly as possible about the situation for end users licensing.

Note that there are plenty of other means for creating organ definition files for Hauptwerk and there are also professional services available for this (such as XML editors, please see the links page for various sources), thus if you find that the MySQL license is not a feasible purchase please consider an alternate approach for creating Hauptwerk organ definitions files. As far as I am aware, MDA is the only company to actually use the MySQL database for creating commercial sample sets for Hauptwerk (yes, we have a license), most if not all of the other commercial and free sample sets have been created using alternate means from MySQL, thus MySQL is certainly not a requirement to create the full format of Hauptwerk organ definitions files.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Martin and Brett:
Please see my comments to your questions below.
Best regards, Denise


Hello Denise (cc. Brett Milan),

Martin Dyde here - Milan Digital Audio's current chief developer, and previous owner/director of Crumhorn Labs Ltd in the U.K.

The commercial (non-GPL) software product we develop is called Hauptwerk (a virtual pipe organ software musical instrument). It was previously developed and licensed (directly to private individual customers) by my then-company (Crumhorn Labs Ltd.), but is now owned, developed and sold by Milan Digital Audio LLC (whom I now work for). We are thus an ISV. We currently embed (only) the MySQL client libraries with our application, and enable those components (being our interface to MySQL) via a secure dongle-based activation process only if a customer (end-user) has purchased a commercial MySQL Classic licence from us.

When the product was first developed in 2005 I spoke to Sinead Lawless from MySQL in the E.U., and we adopted and agreed this approach with Sinead, in order to conform with the MySQL licensing requirements as I understood them from her.

I understand that Brett Milan from Milan Digital Audio spoke to you earlier today, and he asked me to contact you to clarify some points for us and our customers (who raise some of these questions quite frequently on our forum).



Question 1. Your website seems to state clearly that *we* (as an ISV of a non-GPL software product) need to purchase a commercial licence, but it doesn't suggest that our customers each need a commercial licence:

http://www.mysql.com/about/legal/licensing/oem/


"Q3: As a commercial OEM, ISV or VAR, when should I purchase a commercial license for MySQL software?

A: OEMs, ISVs and VARs that want the benefits of embedding commercial binaries of MySQL software in their commercial applications but do not want to be subject to the GPL and do not want to release the source code for their proprietary applications should purchase a commercial license from Sun. Purchasing a commercial license means that the GPL does not apply"


Could you please confirm, for the benefit of our customers, whether it is definitely (still) a MySQL licensing requirement for each of them wishing to use the MySQL client components included in our (non-GPL) software to have a commercial licence for the MySQL software?

MySQL licensing requires you as an ISV to purchase a commercial license for your customers in order to be legally compliant.


Question 2. If the answer is yes, is it acceptable for our customers to purchase MySQL Classic licences directly from you, and for us to enable access to the MySQL client components we embed only when we have satisfactory proof that the customer has a valid commercial licence (e.g. a copy of the licence certificate).
MySQL licensing requires you as an ISV to purchase a commercial license for your customers in order to be legally compliant.


Although we did previously purchase the licences from you on behalf of the customer, I believed that it would be acceptable for the customer to purchase the licence directly, provided that we had the responsibility to ensure that each customer had a valid commercial licence.
No, to do so would be a license [violation]

Doing so would save us a reasonable amount of admin work, and thus allow the customer to the obtain the necessary licence at a lower cost (since we would not have to pass on additional charges for that admin work).
If you directed your customers to purchase the license directly from MySQL, legally you would be out of compliance.


Question 3. If we changed our application so that it no longer embedded, incorporated, or was distributed with any components created or developed by MySQL, and instead just included a menu function by which a user could invoke a MySQL executable that he/she had installed separately, via the command line, with the appropriate arguments, could you confirm that there would then be no requirement on us or the end-user for the end-user to have a commercial MySQL licence?
If your application uses or requires MySQL, to be legally in license compliance you would have to provide your customer with a commercial license.
You may want to use the services of your patent attorney if you require further clarification.


The Free Software Foundation's GPL FAQ section appears to be very clear that this would be the case, i.e. that the end-user could use the MySQL binaries under the GPL without the GPL needing to apply to our application, because an application is not considered a 'derivative work' if it merely calls a GPL-licensed application via the command line:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-license ... GPLPlugins
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-license ... AndPlugins
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-license ... ggregation



Question 4. If necessary, may we quote this email, along with your replies, on our forum/website, so that the licensing situation is absolutely clear for existing and future customers?

(No reply)
Regards,
Brett Milan
http://www.hauptwerk.com
http://www.milandigitalaudio.com
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Re: HW Database

Postby nuke_pcr » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:42 am

timhowarduk wrote:My three favourite sample sets don't have a great to pedal bass coupler. After some poking around I found it was fairly easy to add a perpetually on bass coupler with just one new line in a copy of the supplied organ definition file. (I'm a programmer by day).


What is the line that needs to be inserted? And exactly where does it need to be inserted in the definition file? I guess by that you mean it can be edited in Notepad for organs which are not encoded, right?
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Re: HW Database

Postby mdyde » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:33 am

Hello nuke_pcr,

The forthcoming Hauptwerk v4.0 will natively allow you to use a bass coupler with any organ, even if an organ doesn't include one in its specification. Hence my advice would be to wait for that.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: HW Database

Postby nuke_pcr » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:52 am

mdyde wrote:Hello nuke_pcr,

The forthcoming Hauptwerk v4.0 will natively allow you to use a bass coupler with any organ, even if an organ doesn't include one in its specification. Hence my advice would be to wait for that.


Thank you Martin. I have read about this feature in v4, which I think is a very good idea!
But how much longer do we have to wait? I have seen the new Mac 64-bit trial expires in June. I hope the new version will be released sooner than that :? Well, I know you can't name a date, but I'm just trying my luck over here! :lol:
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Re: HW Database

Postby mdyde » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:51 am

Hello nuke_pcr,

Very sorry for the delays. We're doing our best! Hopefully this month, but I can't promise (it depends on the amount of work coming in from beta testing, as well as day-to-day support, etc.).
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: HW Database

Postby nuke_pcr » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:11 pm

mdyde wrote:Hello nuke_pcr,

Very sorry for the delays. We're doing our best! Hopefully this month, but I can't promise (it depends on the amount of work coming in from beta testing, as well as day-to-day support, etc.).


Thank you very much! All I can say is Godspeed! :P
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Re: HW Database

Postby jrball » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:50 pm

Reading the Mysql postings it seems that the difficulty arises when a database is used directly by HW.
What if the two are kept separate, i.e, the Mysql database is only used to output an XML file which is then installed or loaded into HW from its menus?

Mysql server and workbench are free for community use and that's what I am proposing for my own enjoyment.
I think the biggest help is that Mysql would eliminate linkage and other structural errors in the large file that I am contemplating building.
XML editors would offer some validation but it's a lot of effort to develop the big schema required.

My question are:
1) Can I use Community Mysql from Oracle with no direct connection to HW?
2) If so, will you send the Mysql schema file so I don't have to recreate it from sample table ODFs?
3) If not, do you know of anyone who has an XML schema for HW ODF tables that I can use?
4) What are other developers or hobbyists using these days for large instrument files?

I apologize if this has already been covered.
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Re: HW Database

Postby johnh » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:13 pm

And what about MariaDB? It's supposedly nearly 100% compatible with MySQL.

---john.
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Re: HW Database

Postby chr.schmitz » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:09 am

Thumbs up for a free (or at least affordable) database solution!

Most of recommended XML tools exist only for Windows. On the Mac I am still looking for a free tool, which fulfills my needs. The best one, which I found so far, is XBase. Unfortunately, Excel for OS X does not support useful XML input, Access does not exist, and so on...

Seeing data in table view facilitates understanding of many structures.

Again, I will eagerly wait for Hauptwerk database access!

All the best, Chris
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Re: HW Database

Postby mdyde » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:34 am

jrball wrote:Reading the Mysql postings it seems that the difficulty arises when a database is used directly by HW.
What if the two are kept separate, i.e, the Mysql database is only used to output an XML file which is then installed or loaded into HW from its menus?

Mysql server and workbench are free for community use and that's what I am proposing for my own enjoyment.
I think the biggest help is that Mysql would eliminate linkage and other structural errors in the large file that I am contemplating building.
XML editors would offer some validation but it's a lot of effort to develop the big schema required.

My question are:
1) Can I use Community Mysql from Oracle with no direct connection to HW?


When the previous interface to MySQL was developed, I very specifically checked and double-checked that point with MySQL's makers but they insisted that they wouldn't allow any functionality within Hauptwerk to read or write XML files in a format that MySQL could read/write (e.g. compatible with mysqldump's XML output format) unless the user had specifically purchased a commercial MySQL licence through us. Hence we had to make Hauptwerk's XML formats specifically incompatible with their tools by default.

Hence that isn't something that's easily possible, or that we're allowed to do -- very sorry. I wish it were otherwise, but it isn't something that we can do anything about.

jrball wrote:2) If so, will you send the Mysql schema file so I don't have to recreate it from sample table ODFs?


Please contact us privately via email and we'll see if we can come up with anything that might help, without breaching MySQL's legal requirements.

jrball wrote:3) If not, do you know of anyone who has an XML schema for HW ODF tables that I can use?


I'm not aware of any for the full ODF format. However, a while ago James Willans made an XML schema for the Custom Organ Design Module (CODM) format:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2877
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6422

I haven't used it myself, and I'm not sure know how up-to-date it is.

jrball wrote:4) What are other developers or hobbyists using these days for large instrument files?


As far as I know, the major commercial sample set developers have developed their own software tools to generate the full-format ODFs.

Smaller sample set producers and hobbyists use the CODM, which is that we support, and is designed specifically to be relatively easy to learn, edit and use, whilst being sufficient for modelling the majority of organs.

johnh wrote:And what about MariaDB? It's supposedly nearly 100% compatible with MySQL.


Hello John,

MariaDB isn't yet available (in installable/binary form) for the Mac. Hopefully it will be one day in the not-too-distant future (I don't know), but I understand that you could contribute to its development on the Mac here, if you wanted to help speed that up:

https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/building-mariadb-on-mac-os-x-using-homebrew/

(Any functionality we put into Hauptwerk needs to work on all of the platforms on which Hauptwerk is supported.)
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: HW Database

Postby RichardW » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:16 pm

For what it is worth ...

Borland used to have a database which it incorporated into some of its products. About the time they thought that renaming themselves to Inprise was a good idea they also "threw away" their database. They made it available for free on the Internet. That version was seized upon by the Open Source community and it is now called Firebird. Inprise then realised what a bad idea that was but by then it was too late.

There was a Mac version, I am not sure if it still exists, and there were Windows and Linux versions. This is their website: http://www.firebirdsql.org/
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Re: HW Database

Postby castaway » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:38 pm

mdyde:
I'm not aware of any for the full ODF format. However, a while ago James Willans made an XML schema for the Custom Organ Design Module (CODM) format:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2877
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6422


The above references lead to two dead links on the old Crummhorn website.

I have since discovered the above referenced information buried on my computer, should anyone like a copy.
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