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Expression control

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Expression control

Postby wurlitzerwilly » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:08 pm

When playing percussive samples, for instance Glockenspiel, once they are triggered, they are no longer under variable expression control. They play from start to finish at the level the expression control was set, when the sample was engaged.

This makes enclosed percussions unrealistic. Is there any way of writing an ODF round this issue?

Regards,

Alan.
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Re: Expression control

Postby B. Milan » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:34 pm

Hello Alan,

Hauptwerk can have either sustaining samples or percussive (one shot) samples. Sustaining samples are able to have expression filters applied while being played (i.e. pipes), however Hauptwerk does not currently have the means to apply expression to percussive samples as a one shot sample type after they have been triggered. This also applies to pipe releases which wouldn't be affected by expression once triggered and is the expected behavior (although I realize that percussive samples are a different matter).

I'll discuss it with Martin to see what might be involve to add this for a future version of Hauptwerk, although we did discuss this some years ago and it would be a fairly involved "re-write" of Hauptwerk and how it handles sample types to accommodate for this.

For now there isn't a work around that I am aware of for this. Generally I would think that by the time you play the sample with everything else going on then move the expression pedal the decay will be mostly gone anyway,so the effect should be fairly minimal and not too noticeable. Until now no one has ever commented on this, so I don't think it's a major performance issue, however I do realize it would of course be a useful/more realistic feature to have.

Thank you.
Regards,
Brett Milan
http://www.hauptwerk.com
http://www.milandigitalaudio.com
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Re: Expression control

Postby wurlitzerwilly » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:56 pm

B. Milan wrote:Hello Alan,

Hauptwerk can have either sustaining samples or percussive (one shot) samples. Sustaining samples are able to have expression filters applied while being played (i.e. pipes), however Hauptwerk does not currently have the means to apply expression to percussive samples as a one shot sample type after they have been triggered. This also applies to pipe releases which wouldn't be affected by expression once triggered and is the expected behavior (although I realize that percussive samples are a different matter).

I'll discuss it with Martin to see what might be involve to add this for a future version of Hauptwerk, although we did discuss this some years ago and it would be a fairly involved "re-write" of Hauptwerk and how it handles sample types to accommodate for this.

For now there isn't a work around that I am aware of for this. Generally I would think that by the time you play the sample with everything else going on then move the expression pedal the decay will be mostly gone anyway,so the effect should be fairly minimal and not too noticeable. Until now no one has ever commented on this, so I don't think it's a major performance issue, however I do realize it would of course be a useful/more realistic feature to have.

Thank you.

Hello Brett.

Thank you for your swift reply.

Yes, I realise that a re-write might be necessary, but of course I don't know just how much extra work that might involve.

I guess that this problem has not been perceived as important previously, but as more professionals become involved in Virtual Organs, especially Theatre Organs, it will become increasingly important.

It is quite an important issue now for some.

Here is a quote from Michael Wooldridge - one of the UK's prominent professional organists:

The issue here is not whether they are enclosed or unenclosed, but that they vary, enclosed at the point you sound them then unenclosed thereafter. This means if you sound a glock for example at a loud volume and then close the swells to continue playing on a quiet registration, the glock still belts out at full volume for all of its decay time, whereas in real life it would get pulled back by the swells. Same with cymbals etc.


I appreciate your discussing this with Martin and will welcome anything that can be done to address it.

Regards,

Alan.
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Re: Expression control

Postby toplayer2 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Withdrawn
Last edited by toplayer2 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expression control

Postby ggoode_sa » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:37 am

How's this for a whacky idea...

Create your 'percussion' sample as a 'sustaining' sample at the wave level - i.e. have a small section of looped silence at the end of the 'attack' sample. Then the 'percussion' will sound it's full length and then loop silence until the note is released, and be able to be 'enclosed' as it would then be defined as a sustaining sample in the ODF.

Would it work?

I guess the problem would then be that releasing the note before it reached the end of the wave would cause the 'percussion' to fade out... :(

Any way to create a 'sustaining' rank that goes straight to the release portion?

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Re: Expression control

Postby toplayer2 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:15 pm

We used this approach to add an action release effect to our Pianos and to allow the tremulant to modulate the P332 Vibraphone. It also allows the swell to modulate the Vibraphone as it decays. We applied an "always on" sustain to the Vibraphone. This technique will work with enclosed cymbals, chimes, etc.

Joe
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Re: Expression control

Postby wurlitzerwilly » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:51 pm

ggoode_sa wrote:How's this for a whacky idea...

Create your 'percussion' sample as a 'sustaining' sample at the wave level - i.e. have a small section of looped silence at the end of the 'attack' sample. Then the 'percussion' will sound it's full length and then loop silence until the note is released, and be able to be 'enclosed' as it would then be defined as a sustaining sample in the ODF.

Would it work?

I guess the problem would then be that releasing the note before it reached the end of the wave would cause the 'percussion' to fade out... :(

Any way to create a 'sustaining' rank that goes straight to the release portion?

GrahamG

Not whacky, Graham. :)

As Joe has said, it can be applied, but of course requires the samples themselves to be tailored.
We were at first concerned that an 'always on' approach might tie up processor time, even sounding 'nothing', but in practice there is no deterioration in performance.

This is fine for us, but will not work for one-shots in Masterworks, Connoisseur etc and of course some of the Classical sample sets, that have already been released for sale. This is important for things like my 5/32 ODF which uses MW samples and of course I can't alter them. :(
Regards,

Alan.
(Paramount Organ Works)
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