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MIDI hardware necessary for wiring old Rogers parts

Building organ consoles for use with Hauptwerk, adding MIDI to existing consoles, obtaining parts, ...

MIDI hardware necessary for wiring old Rogers parts

Postby aboocher » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:25 pm

Hi everyone,

I've just acquired a 32 note AGO pedalboard as well as 2 manuals out of an old Rogers instrument. Plus a swell pedal. All the contacts (including magnets on the pedals) are still intact as are the individual wires from each key (61 + 1 for each keyboard and 30 + 1 for the pedals. I think the +1 goes to the ground / power supply). I'm hoping to make a project of wiring this stuff up. I'd like to keep things simple, but I'm very much a beginner when it comes to all of this. Below are lots of questions - I've looked at the forums and found lots of helpful links, but I'm still uncertain as to exactly what bits of hardware I'll need.

I currently have Hauptwerk up and running on my Macbook Pro, but just via a Mio Midi USB plugged into my Kawai Digital Piano. That works fine at the moment and I'm considering the following two options:

1) Wire up the pedal to a MIDI encoder and then daisy chain that through my piano and then have (hopefully) a functioning one manual organ. Benefits of this: I think I'd just need to buy a MIDI pedal encoder and a power supply. And then if I fail miserably I'm just out a relatively small amount of money.

2 ) Ditch the piano and rig up MIDI encoders to the two manuals keyboards and the pedalboard. A plus of this is that I imagine I can save money by getting an encoder that will work for maybe 2 keyboards + pedal, or at least some combination thereof.

The guy I bought the parts from told me that in terms of the wiring, it's just basically a matter of

a) getting the right midi hardware
b) hooking each of the 61 + 1 + 61 + 30 + 1 wires to the right part of the hardware.
c) daisy chaining them together.
d) connecting this to a 12 volt power supply
e) having a midi interface (would my MIO work?)

First, does the above sound about right? Am I missing any hardware that's not on my radar? I see things online about midi decoders, but I don't think I need any of those for this project.

Doing everything in parallel makes me think I need 163 pins - are there any encoders that would be this large? Probably not, I'd imagine I'd need a few midi channels for this. But I've read about these matrix encoders that lead me to believe that in theory I can attach my 61+61+120 wires into an 8x8 + 8x8 + 8x4 grid and then just spit out 8+8+8+8+8+4 = 44 wires into a modestly sized midi encoder. Am I off base with this idea? My only reason to do this would be to save money on hardware, but if this winds up requiring extra skills / hardware, I'm probably happier just to do whatever is simplest.

For instance, in reading this: https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php ... n=tutorial it looks like I can buy
(2) BBS-1k,
(1) BBSP
(1) MRG2
some WiPlugs - I'd like to avoid soldering, but it looks like some of the plugs this site sells are unavailable.

(?) I'll need some sort of power supply for this, right? Can I just get a small one from amazon / home depot?

This seems eminently affordable, and much cheaper than anything I could find on midiworks.

Alternatively I've looked at stuff like this: https://www.midiboutique.com/hwce2 and I'm pretty confused - it looks like this isn't the right setup for parallel input, so I'll need scan matrices set up? (Where do I get those / how hard is it to set up? Do I need to do any programming?)

Thanks for any pointers. In general if there's an affordable kit out there, I'd be happy to buy it. The only premade kits I could find were unfortunately pretty pricey, so I wanted to look into alternatives, hence my post here. Thanks so much for the help!

Adam in San Diego.
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Re: MIDI hardware necessary for wiring old Rogers parts

Postby Frank-Evans » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:44 pm

Not a sales pitch but.... Look at Artisan Organ for their 2 manual conversion kit.
http://www.artisanorgans.com/
Might be what you want... I am using Artisan and am well satisfied with it...
Regards
Frank Evans
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Re: MIDI hardware necessary for wiring old Rogers parts

Postby organtechnology » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:00 am

aboocher wrote:Hi everyone,

I've just acquired a 32 note AGO pedalboard as well as 2 manuals out of an old Rogers instrument. Plus a swell pedal. All the contacts (including magnets on the pedals) are still intact as are the individual wires from each key (61 + 1 for each keyboard and 30 + 1 for the pedals. I think the +1 goes to the ground / power supply). I'm hoping to make a project of wiring this stuff up. I'd like to keep things simple, but I'm very much a beginner when it comes to all of this. Below are lots of questions - I've looked at the forums and found lots of helpful links, but I'm still uncertain as to exactly what bits of hardware I'll need.

I currently have Hauptwerk up and running on my Macbook Pro, but just via a Mio Midi USB plugged into my Kawai Digital Piano. That works fine at the moment and I'm considering the following two options:

1) Wire up the pedal to a MIDI encoder and then daisy chain that through my piano and then have (hopefully) a functioning one manual organ. Benefits of this: I think I'd just need to buy a MIDI pedal encoder and a power supply. And then if I fail miserably I'm just out a relatively small amount of money.

2 ) Ditch the piano and rig up MIDI encoders to the two manuals keyboards and the pedalboard. A plus of this is that I imagine I can save money by getting an encoder that will work for maybe 2 keyboards + pedal, or at least some combination thereof.

The guy I bought the parts from told me that in terms of the wiring, it's just basically a matter of

a) getting the right midi hardware
b) hooking each of the 61 + 1 + 61 + 30 + 1 wires to the right part of the hardware.
c) daisy chaining them together.
d) connecting this to a 12 volt power supply
e) having a midi interface (would my MIO work?)

First, does the above sound about right? Am I missing any hardware that's not on my radar? I see things online about midi decoders, but I don't think I need any of those for this project.

Doing everything in parallel makes me think I need 163 pins - are there any encoders that would be this large? Probably not, I'd imagine I'd need a few midi channels for this. But I've read about these matrix encoders that lead me to believe that in theory I can attach my 61+61+120 wires into an 8x8 + 8x8 + 8x4 grid and then just spit out 8+8+8+8+8+4 = 44 wires into a modestly sized midi encoder. Am I off base with this idea? My only reason to do this would be to save money on hardware, but if this winds up requiring extra skills / hardware, I'm probably happier just to do whatever is simplest.

For instance, in reading this: https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php ... n=tutorial it looks like I can buy
(2) BBS-1k,
(1) BBSP
(1) MRG2
some WiPlugs - I'd like to avoid soldering, but it looks like some of the plugs this site sells are unavailable.

(?) I'll need some sort of power supply for this, right? Can I just get a small one from amazon / home depot?

This seems eminently affordable, and much cheaper than anything I could find on midiworks.

Alternatively I've looked at stuff like this: https://www.midiboutique.com/hwce2 and I'm pretty confused - it looks like this isn't the right setup for parallel input, so I'll need scan matrices set up? (Where do I get those / how hard is it to set up? Do I need to do any programming?)

Thanks for any pointers. In general if there's an affordable kit out there, I'd be happy to buy it. The only premade kits I could find were unfortunately pretty pricey, so I wanted to look into alternatives, hence my post here. Thanks so much for the help!

Adam in San Diego.


Doing steps 1 first and then step 2 sounds like a reasonable plan.

The least expensive is probably Midi-hardware.com and the next more expensive is Midiboutique.com but you only need the hwce not the hwce2. Organtechnology has some 64 pin to 16 pin(x4) adapter boards which allow using ribbon cable to plug into the 64keymux boards that works similar to the way the artisan boards hold the wires..

We are also developing an optical keying system for pedal boards and keyboards which can be installed with no soldering and integrates with both Midi-hardware modules and midiboutique hardware. This system replaces the reed switches in the pedal boardand plugsinto the encoders directly without the need of expensive 1x61 to 8x8 converter cards.

Let me know if you are interested in discussing any of this or look up my phone number on the contact page of my web site. The advice is free :)

Best regards,

Thomas
Complete VPO systems powered by Hauptwerk™. Real Wood Consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound Modules, Audio for Home or Church.
info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com

Authorized Hauptwerk Dealer; Milan Digital Audio Dealer..
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Re: MIDI hardware necessary for wiring old Rogers parts

Postby larason2 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:48 am

I would go with the Midiboutique HWCE2, that’s what I used. It has plenty of extra inputs if you would like to add stop tabs or an extra manual in the future. You can buy spreader boards with it that take care of the matrixing, they are available as a package. What I did is buy some ribbon cable and solder the cut ends directly to the keyboard contacts. From what you say, it sounds like you should be able to solder the cut ends of the ribbon cable directly to your wires. The magnetic switches on a Rogers pedalboard can be finicky, but they work well once they are in alignment. You could wire them up to HWCE2 as well.
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Re: MIDI hardware necessary for wiring old Rogers parts

Postby aboocher » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:32 pm

Ah thanks, this looks really good. And thanks for helping me with the basics! So it looks like there are two bundles:

https://www.midiboutique.com/hwce2-bund ... rch=bundle
https://www.midiboutique.com/hwce2-bund ... rch=bundle

and as far as I can tell the main difference is the keymux64 vs the sm8x8 spread board. Does anyone know what the difference between these are? They seem similar in terms of wiring, but maybe one is slower / has a delay when connecting to the computer? The price differential makes me think there's something worth paying for. Have you bought one or the other?

Also if I do this plan, it seems like each keyboard/pedalboard will have its own *matrix* (either keymux or sm8x8) and then those will connect to the main hwce2 board. Now each keyboard has a +1 wire that I understand connects to the a ground / power. Does that wire need to go all the way to the main board, or will these ribbon cables power everything for me? I'm hoping (and it seems reasonable) that I can just wire everything from keyboard one to 1 of the matrices and then connect this with ribbons.

Thanks so much for your help!
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Re: MIDI hardware necessary for wiring old Rogers parts

Postby organtechnology » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:47 pm

aboocher wrote:Ah thanks, this looks really good. And thanks for helping me with the basics! So it looks like there are two bundles:

https://www.midiboutique.com/hwce2-bund ... rch=bundle
https://www.midiboutique.com/hwce2-bund ... rch=bundle

and as far as I can tell the main difference is the keymux64 vs the sm8x8 spread board. Does anyone know what the difference between these are? They seem similar in terms of wiring, but maybe one is slower / has a delay when connecting to the computer? The price differential makes me think there's something worth paying for. Have you bought one or the other?

Also if I do this plan, it seems like each keyboard/pedalboard will have its own *matrix* (either keymux or sm8x8) and then those will connect to the main hwce2 board. Now each keyboard has a +1 wire that I understand connects to the a ground / power. Does that wire need to go all the way to the main board, or will these ribbon cables power everything for me? I'm hoping (and it seems reasonable) that I can just wire everything from keyboard one to 1 of the matrices and then connect this with ribbons.

Thanks so much for your help!


Good choice. The difference is in the way the 1x64 to 8x8 matrix is done and the resultant keymux64 using 16 pin IDC connectors and ribbon cable.while the smf8x8 uses diodes and 10 pin IDC connectors for which there is the bo10 boards. They are both suitable.

Add a bo16x4 for each 1x64 input and make your wiring life easier.:) or add 7 bo10 boards to the sm8x8

Thomas
Complete VPO systems powered by Hauptwerk™. Real Wood Consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound Modules, Audio for Home or Church.
info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com

Authorized Hauptwerk Dealer; Milan Digital Audio Dealer..
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Re: MIDI hardware necessary for wiring old Rogers parts

Postby larason2 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:18 pm

As Thomas says, the Keymux64 spreader board handles the conversion a bit differently than the SM 8x8. The main difference I found is that with the keymux64, you can wire a common return rail for every key, whereas the SM 8x8 needs a separate return rail for each set of 8 keys. You could get either, but the Keymux64 will make your life easier. I got the cheaper ones, but it was more of a headache to wire.
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