Would a serious organist play this organ?

I'm still a beginner on the organ. Actually, I'm still in the "piano" phase of learning music ... learning the chords, scales, etc. I have an 88-key piano-weighted Roland keyboard that I practice on ... and a two-manual MIDI organ in the same room which isn't getting much use yet.

I admire the online photos of serious Hauptwerk controllers, and every day I'm one step closer to dropping ten or fifteen grand on a serious instrument. I really don't know anything about what makes a desirable keyboard "feel" on an organ, though - which of course is important if you see yourself playing a couple hours a day for the rest of your life.

A friend has a Roland Atelier ... it has a weighted piano keyboard for the lower manual and a normal organ-type keyboard for the upper. It has decent enough organ samples, but it's really geared for homemade pop organ playing. But my friend is versatile and can toggle between advanced organ repertoire to pop synth and piano music with ease

As I go through the online photos of Hauptwerk controllers ... and as I consider that I would probably always still want a weighted piano keyboard for piano-type music and pop stuff ... I'm wondering would a serious classical organist could be just as happy playing on a three-manual organ where the bottom manual is a weighted keyboard and the top two are organ keyboards?

Would any advanced classical organist feel just at home at such a custom-made instrument? Or is there something about a weighted keyboard that would be so different that he would turn up his nose or possibly even have difficulty practicing and playing all his usual organ stuff?

If I were to have an instrument custom built, something professional, well-made, and visually attractive for my music room, it seems to me a weighted 88-key lower manual and two normal upper organ manuals would be ideal. But I haven't played much organ yet - certainly not enough to know a instrument that plays easily from one that's a bear to play. Does a weighted keyboard mess up everything for serious organists? Or would such an instrument be the best of both worlds - ie, pop piano and classical organ?

It would basically be this thing ... with three manuals - and just as a controller....

Neumie,

I started with an 88-key Roland too.



I added some pedals off ebay from another Hauptwerker, then a cheap 61-key Korg and I was away. It felt OK to me up until I acquired a copy of the OAM Vollenhove set. That has the Hauptwerk on the upper manual and the Ruckwerk on the lower one. Then it all felt wrong.

The Roland had felt OK because that is what I was used to but switching manuals made it fee quite odd.

I replaced it with a matched set of CMK manuals but I do miss having the full 88 keys available sometimes.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the reply.

I don't know anything about different sample sets yet or why certain organs would swap out manuals.

If you had gotten a different sample set - say, a common or popular sample - would it still have been as important to you (for comfortable playing) to exchange your weighted piano for synth keyboards? Or would you still then have the piano keyboard and still be happy using it as the lower manual?

-N

Is there any reason you can't just keep a separate 76 or 88 key keyboard for piano music? Mixing apples and oranges doesn't make much sense to me. Although the Atlantic City organ has three extended-scope keyboards, it appears that those are still organ touch unlike a weighted, piano-style keyboard.

Yep ... simplest reason of all. Space limitation. Tiny music room. I have a keyboard and an organ, but it's a tight fit and doesn't make for a pleasant room to be in.

Also, I've noodled with a MIDI horseshoe of keyboards in the past. Didn't like it. There is something about a three or four manual organ, all manuals right in front of me, that seem ideal.

Right now, doing the piano lessons thing ... and often experimenting with what a practice tune sounds like with organ samples ... it's easy to want both the piano and the organ in front of me at the same time.

Maybe that will change as I become a more seasoned musician, but for now having both a weighted keyboard and a two-manual organ in the same room is exactly the reason why I'm imagining a hybrid of both.

Neumie,

To add another alternative to the discussion PSE have a look at this video: ( wait until the PianoDemos begin)
http://www.keykings.com/index.php/all-v ... art-2-of-3

I have a smaller, two manual edition of the WERSI breed, which uses the same keyboards. They are "half" weighed and dynamic ( velocity controlled, which allows to also control via MIDI high end piano-samples)) FATAR boards.

They don't provide the typical piano feeling of the hammer action, but allow a very precise control of the piano sound. To my children, who normally play the piano, the change to my organ does not present any difficulty.

The 88 -lower of the VERONA has the same action as the middle and upper.

Rgds,
amun

Neumie,

I am not a professional, and was/am more pianist than organist. I started recovering my childhood piano skills a few years ago with a small keyboard/synth, then moved up to a very nice Yamaha 88-key weighted instrument. When I first discovered Hauptwerk, I used the Yamaha for an organ keyboard, then bought two CMK keyboards, then a third CMK keyboard and their pedalboard. Using the piano-style keyboard just didn't work well for me with organ, and intermixing keyboards didn't work well at all. The touch is just too different and distracting when moving among keyboards.

I am also space-constrained. My solution was to build a console with a 3-stack of CMK keyboards and a CMK pedalboard, with my 88-key Yamaha on a shelf under the CMK keyboards. The CMKs can be rolled forward, and the Yamaha rolled out toward me. I can play piano when I want, but get it out of the way for the organ. I mounted my piano foot pedals on wood blocks that fit snugly in between the organ foot pedals when needed, else just lay to side. I takes less than a minute to switch between configurations.

The organ dimensions are all AGO standard; I have three CMK swell pedals mounted below, and plenty of room for playing the pedalboard. The piano is at a comfortable playing position when rolled out. I push my bench back further for piano playing, and although I made it height-adjustable, I don't have to adjust it for organ versus piano. I share audio components among the piano, organ, and home theater system.

I'd rather have a separate piano (actually would RATHER have a baby grand!), but this works very well as a compromise.

Just perhaps another way to approach a solution.

Barry

I will second Barry's answer.

I would also love to have my 88-key Roland slide out in the way Barry describes but I have some large wall-brackets in the way - and I agree with the grand piano part as well! My "money no object" solution involves a push button and electric motors that would slide the weighted piano keyboard out while lifting the organ manuals into a five manual configuration. Oh well, I can dream.

When I was basically a piano player with some pedals and an extra manual it all worked well. Using two manuals with one main and one subsidiary worked as long as the main manual was the Roland.

Vollenhove has the main manual over the other and that is where it started going wrong. I also had to use two manuals to simulate three for one piece, Elgar's Nimrod. That swapped manuals a single hand at a time and I was a manual short. I could end up swapping the manuals so much that they ended up upside down if you see what I mean. Once you start swapping about it really feels strange.

At that point I decided something needed to be done. Volume 1 of the MDA Salisbury had just been released so I raided the piggy bank and bought four CMKs to go with the Salisbury.

I still have a piano which sits against the wall but as the organ hardware increased it became more and more difficult to get at. I can only play the top half now.

Maybe if all the manuals had the same feel I would still be OK with different lengths but with a markedly different feel I soon had to move on. The "spare" piano keys worked as pistons, too, I miss those.

My solution was to build a console with a 3-stack of CMK keyboards and a CMK pedalboard, with my 88-key Yamaha on a shelf under the CMK keyboards. The CMKs can be rolled forward, and the Yamaha rolled out toward me. I can play piano when I want, but get it out of the way for the organ. I mounted my piano foot pedals on wood blocks that fit snugly in between the organ foot pedals when needed, else just lay to side. I takes less than a minute to switch between configurations.

Barry,

Any chance you could show us (ok, me) a photo of your rig?

I have a very large office desk, big enough for AGO pedals to sit under, and I've seen some folks here set keyboards on a desktop. I've seen "under-table" drawer sliders for $100 or so, heavy duty enough for the heaviest digital piano, that would bolt to the underside of a desk, attach to a heavy Roland digital piano, and then the piano could slide forward out from under the table. If the "drawer" would slide back far enough so that the knees don't bonk into it when playing the organ, that would be workable, although I don't know how polished it would look. It would definitely be one of the more cobbled-looking HW setups.

I'd love to see your setup if it's practical to post a photo.

-N

Maybe if all the manuals had the same feel I would still be OK...

I can see it now. I'm going to build the world's first HW organ made out of three Roland 88-key weighted piano keyboards.

That'll be an eyeful.

Neumie,

To add another alternative to the discussion PSE have a look at this video: ( wait until the PianoDemos begin)
http://www.keykings.com/index.php/all-v ... art-2-of-3

I have a smaller, two manual edition of the WERSI breed, which uses the same keyboards. They are "half" weighed and dynamic ( velocity controlled, which allows to also control via MIDI high end piano-samples)) FATAR boards.

They don't provide the typical piano feeling of the hammer action, but allow a very precise control of the piano sound. To my children, who normally play the piano, the change to my organ does not present any difficulty.

The 88 -lower of the VERONA has the same action as the middle and upper.

Boy, Amun ... you really showed me something here. That looks like almost exactly what I imagine. I had completely forgotten that there are these "half-way" keyboards in between organ and piano weighted. I remember those from when I would visit the pro keyboard shops in the 90's. Some of them were quite adequate as a "piano". And of course the issue seems to be keeping all three keyboards uniform for the benefit of serious organ playing.

What I didn't mention was that my MIDI organ that sits next to my piano-keyboard is a MIDI Hammond B3. (Funny, the whole idea of playing HW on a MIDI B3. There's something not right about that.) So those drawbars on the Wersi also caught my eye.

I'll tell you ... minus all the novelty instruments and auto-accompaniment, if that organ had AGO pedals, I think it would be spot-on what I'm looking for.

Thanks for showing that to me.

______________

ps. I just looked at the Wersi website. Interesting that they are promoting HW right on their home page.

Neumie,

Here is a photo: http://www.pcorgan.com/Fotos3cEN.html if you scroll down to Barry Gerken.

(I've since simplified the speaker arrangement; the monitor pair is also used for the Yamaha synth/piano.)

Happy to provide all the photos and details you may want. Just let me know. Personally wouldn't worry about a "cobbled together" configuration, especially to begin with. You'll discover what you like and don't like about dimensions and arrangements of "stuff" before committing bigger $$. One nice thing about the Hauptwerk obsession is that one can commit to it step-by-step.

Barry

That's very cool, Barry. Very much like what I am imagining. (Okay, I imagined a three manual where the lowest manual was the weighted piano, but I can see now that that just doesn't work once the playing is advanced.) A piano on a little drawer like that is ideal. I noticed too that the platform that supports the piano has a big cut-away in it, so your knees don't hit it when you play the organ.

Thanks for showing me that picture.

The cutaway IS a crucial aspect of the design. Unfortunately, I didn't discover that until I sat to play for the first time! Luckily I was doing the work myself so was able to cut and finish without it looking too ad hoc. Was an annoying and obvious oversight, nonetheless. Also, keyboard has to slide out quite a ways to allow access to all of its controls, so the slides it's mounted on have to be properly sized.

This thread is now dated, but I stumbled across this picture today of an organ - exactly like what I referred to in the original post with a weighted piano keyboard at the bottom and three organ manuals above - and sitting in an old church! It's also not a Roland Atelier. Custom made by a company in Germany.

http://www.osi-profisoundsysteme.de/wp- ... dorf-2.jpg