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Keyboard MIDI Problems

Building organ consoles for use with Hauptwerk, adding MIDI to existing consoles, obtaining parts, ...
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Shropshire Lad

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Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostWed Sep 09, 2015 10:47 am

I have a Makin/ Johannus organ. I'm struggling to identify what make or type the keyboards are except they are connected via a 16 pin ribbon connector. I have connected this to a MIDI boutique HWce2x board but only get 16 random notes out of the 61 working. The notes they play do not correspond with those on the keys. I have tried MIDIOX and currently only 16 notes are giving out a signal. Has anybody any ideas how I progress from here. I must confess my knowledge in these matters is virtually non existent!

Many thanks
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engrssc

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostWed Sep 09, 2015 11:01 am

Let me get you started. Keyboard wise, it sounds like you have a matrix configuration. Probably 8 X 8. Somewhere on the keyboard assembly there should be a circuit board with diodes installed, The output of this board should connect to the ribbon cable and ultimately to a (ribbon) connector.

Before going further, is there a reason that you don't want to use the original organ's circuitry? Most of these organs already have a (standard) MIDI output, if not from stops, couplers and expression pedals, but at least from the keyboards (using a 5 pin DIN connector) many times located under the keydesk.

Rgds,
Ed
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Shropshire Lad

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostWed Sep 09, 2015 12:10 pm

Hi Ed and thanks for your very quick response.

You are correct in everything you say. The pistons and swell pedals use the HWce2x to produce a MIDI signal and manuals and pedals the organs own circuitry. However, the original circuit board the manuals and pedals are wired to has now packed up so I was hoping to use the HWce2x instead to get it back up and running.

Thanks
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johnh

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostWed Sep 09, 2015 4:12 pm

The chances that an existing ribbon cable would pug into another vendor's board and work are slim at best. I think you'll need to spend some time tracing the wiring from the existing keyboards. If you want to keep that wiring intact you may need to make a junction board that re-maps the signals (wires) from the keyboards to the encoder.
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organtechnology

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostWed Sep 09, 2015 7:56 pm

Shropshire Lad wrote:I have a Makin/ Johannus organ. I'm struggling to identify what make or type the keyboards are except they are connected via a 16 pin ribbon connector. I have connected this to a MIDI boutique HWce2x board but only get 16 random notes out of the 61 working. The notes they play do not correspond with those on the keys. I have tried MIDIOX and currently only 16 notes are giving out a signal. Has anybody any ideas how I progress from here. I must confess my knowledge in these matters is virtually non existent!

Many thanks


It would sure help if you had more information about the keyboards. In the meantime '20 questions' is the way to find out.
1. Are they velocity sensitive ? (look at the organ's original specifications to determine.)

2. Is there 1 ribbon cable per keyboard ? (Are there more than one cable per keyboard or more than one keyboard per cable.

3. If there is only one 16 pin cable per keyboard and they are NOT velocity sensitive, it is possible to determine the matrix and the direction the diodes in the matrix are pointing, with a VOM.

When a key is depressed (start with note#1, slide a small wood wedge into the back of the key for the selected note to hold it down) there will be one row and one column connected together and a diode in series.

In an 8x8 matrix with the diodes in common anode, the keyboard switches will connect the cathode of the diode to a common point for the first 8 notes the anodes of the diodes are connected to select lines 1 thru 8.
By putting the Red lead of the VOM (set to measure resistance of 2k Ohms or diodes) on one pin and probing the other pins with a clip lead hooked to a small safety pin, you will find two pins that are connected together.
If not then reverse the leads and try again. Once the correct polarity is found and you have determined which pins are connected when the first key is depressed, record the pin numbers for that key. Go to the next key up and find the pins that are connected when that key is depressed. One of the pins in the second pair will be the same as one of the pins in the first pair. This is the common diode pin for the first 8 notes. Do likewise for the third key and so on for 8 keys. If it is 8x8 you will not need to move the common pin until you get to note #9.
The select lines will repeat every 8 keys (the pin for note #1 and note#9 will be the same. Likewise the pin for note #2 and note #10 will be the same. Once you have identified the 8 select lines for the first 8 notes, you only need to search for the common diode pin for the next 8 notes. You will need to depress only notes #9, #17, #25, #33, #41, #49 and #57 to find their respective diode common lines.

If you want the schematic of the matrix send me a PM with your email and I will send you a BMP picture.

Happy hunting!

Thomas
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
USA and Canada shipments only.
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engrssc

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostWed Sep 09, 2015 8:36 pm

Going back to Shropshire Lad's closing comment "I must confess my knowledge in these matters is virtually non existent!". In order to help, "we" may need to get quite basic. Perhaps knowing more about Makin/ Johannus keyboards, esp their wiring. Most builders use a "standard" (for their products) wiring scheme irregardless of a particular model. I'm guessing Johannus does the same. I don't have any wiring diagrams of any Johannus organs, but no doubt someone frequenting the Forum should. Building an adapter cable would seem to be best way to go in this case.

BTW, Thomas, your write up as how to "wring out" an 8 X 8 matrix was well thought out. I made a copy of it for my files, thanks. Somewhere in my "stuff", I built a patch setup using spare parts from a Teensy project to check out something like this. The key outputs on one side, and the MIDI encoder's (input) connections on the.

I started with a single key output and "patched" it to various encoder's inputs until I found the correct one. Then a second, etc. After doing several this way, it was easy to pick up on the wiring pattern that was used.


Rgds,
Ed.
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jkinkennon

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostThu Sep 10, 2015 12:59 am

I have some notes from a Johannes organ that I took a look at several years ago. This may or may not match up correctly with what you find by using the VOM -- that's the ultimate test. Anyway, for comparison purposes I show a 16-pin connector with the columns on the odd pins and the rows on the even pins. The columns start on pin 1 and the rows start on pin 2. The notes progress across the rows, opposite of what Allen does. That is, low C is on column 1, row 1, and C# is on column 2, row 1. The note value ended up being 0x24 + column number + row num times 8. Hope this agrees with what the meter reads.
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NickNelson

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostThu Sep 10, 2015 5:05 am

engrssc wrote:BTW, Thomas, your write up as how to "wring out" an 8 X 8 matrix was well thought out.


Agreed. Logical and thorough - what more could one ask?

Nick
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engrssc

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostThu Sep 10, 2015 5:13 am

NickNelson wrote:Agreed. Logical and thorough - what more could one ask?


Ok, I have a list. :roll:

Rgds,
Ed
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Shropshire Lad

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostThu Sep 10, 2015 9:15 am

All, I'm overwhelmed by the time and trouble you have taken to assist. Time for some investigation work to begin! Thanks again.
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organtechnology

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostThu Sep 10, 2015 11:02 am

engrssc wrote:
NickNelson wrote:Agreed. Logical and thorough - what more could one ask?


Ok, I have a list. :roll:

Rgds,
Ed


At (y)our age it should be a bucket list :lol:
-T
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
USA and Canada shipments only.
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Shropshire Lad

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostFri Oct 23, 2015 2:40 pm

I never got to the bottom of my problem as described above. However, I did carefully dismantle my keyboard which I have photographed. Does anybody recognise the wiring matrix type and give any assistance?

http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/andyj ... ent&page=1

Many thanks
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organtechnology

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostFri Oct 23, 2015 8:37 pm

Shropshire Lad wrote:I never got to the bottom of my problem as described above. However, I did carefully dismantle my keyboard which I have photographed. Does anybody recognise the wiring matrix type and give any assistance?

http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/andyj ... ent&page=1

Many thanks


Hi Andy,

Since there are 61 bubbles it is probably NOT velocity sensitive and the repeating pattern on the PCB indicates it may be a 5x12 matrix (5 octaves of 12 keys) + 1 extra key in the 6th Octave. 5x12 is of course 60 and the extra key makes it 61. This is fairly common in consumer grade keyboards but not so easy to buy an encoder. The other side of that PCB should have diodes on it and if so, the direction of the diodes is also important.

If you take off the bubble strip and photograph both sides of the PCB I think I can figure it out.

I am also pretty sure a Highly Liquid CPU encoder could do the job but it needs to be wired correctly and have a matching program installed in it.
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
USA and Canada shipments only.
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Shropshire Lad

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostSat Oct 24, 2015 12:59 pm

Hi

You are correct that the keys are not velocity sensitive. I've added a couple more photos to the link above which may help.

Thanks again.
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organtechnology

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Re: Keyboard MIDI Problems

PostSun Oct 25, 2015 11:40 am

Hi,

Well it can't be a 5x12 'cause there are not enough connections on the output cable. So I am back to the 8x8 matrix but using only 61 of the 64 notes. If I had the boards in front of me, I could take my Ohmmeter and figure it out but since you are in the UK that's not likely to happen.



organtechnology wrote:
Shropshire Lad wrote:I have a Makin/ Johannus organ. I'm struggling to identify what make or type the keyboards are except they are connected via a 16 pin ribbon connector. I have connected this to a MIDI boutique HWce2x board but only get 16 random notes out of the 61 working. The notes they play do not correspond with those on the keys. I have tried MIDIOX and currently only 16 notes are giving out a signal. Has anybody any ideas how I progress from here. I must confess my knowledge in these matters is virtually non existent!

Many thanks


It would sure help if you had more information about the keyboards. In the meantime '20 questions' is the way to find out.
1. Are they velocity sensitive ? (look at the organ's original specifications to determine.) NO

2. Is there 1 ribbon cable per keyboard ? (Are there more than one cable per keyboard or more than one keyboard per cable. YES

3. If there is only one 16 pin cable per keyboard and they are NOT velocity sensitive, it is possible to determine the matrix and the direction the diodes in the matrix are pointing, with an Ohmmeter. YES

When a key is depressed (start with note#1, slide a small wood wedge into the back of the key for the selected note to hold it down) there will be one row and one column connected together and a diode in series.

In an 8x8 matrix with the diodes in common anode, the keyboard switches will connect the cathode of the diode to a common point for the first 8 notes the anodes of the diodes are connected to select lines 1 thru 8.
By putting the Red lead of the VOM (set to measure resistance of 2k Ohms or diodes) on one pin and probing the other pins with a clip lead hooked to a small safety pin, you will find two pins that are connected together.
If not then reverse the leads and try again. Once the correct polarity is found and you have determined which pins are connected when the first key is depressed, record the pin numbers for that key. Go to the next key up and find the pins that are connected when that key is depressed. One of the pins in the second pair will be the same as one of the pins in the first pair. This is the common diode pin for the first 8 notes. Do likewise for the third key and so on for 8 keys. If it is 8x8 you will not need to move the common pin until you get to note #9.
The select lines will repeat every 8 keys (the pin for note #1 and note#9 will be the same. Likewise the pin for note #2 and note #10 will be the same. Once you have identified the 8 select lines for the first 8 notes, you only need to search for the common diode pin for the next 8 notes. You will need to depress only notes #9, #17, #25, #33, #41, #49 and #57 to find their respective diode common lines.

If you want the schematic of the matrix send me a PM with your email and I will send you a BMP picture.

Happy hunting!

Thomas
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
USA and Canada shipments only.
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