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SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Building organ consoles for use with Hauptwerk, adding MIDI to existing consoles, obtaining parts, ...

SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby TomBentley » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:50 pm

Back with another question as I continue to add midi to my recently acquired Saville Sovereign console. The keyboards and pedalboard were previously midified prior to my getting the console. So far, thanks to the help and advice of others on here, I'm managed to successfully add midi to the keyboard pistons, and to the choir and swell shoes (haven't tackled the cresh yet). The stop rail has SAMS. I don't really desire to use the SAMS to move the tabs up and down and would be satisfied if they operated simply worked as note on/off so I could wire them directly to the spare inputs I have on the Sowa MBBS. I have 46 empty contacts on the MBBS so I believe that would work just fine. Unfortunately, I have attempted to research and can't seem to figure out how to do this. I don't need to have the tabs move up and down via the SAM, just simply turn a stop on when pressed down and cancel the stop when tab is lifted up manually.

If this means removing the SAMS portion (hardware) I would gladly give them to anyone on here who needs SAMS, provided I can wire up the tilt tabs to work as above.

Any clues to where I should be looking would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tom
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby johnh » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:51 pm

The SAM will likely have 4, 5, or 6 connections depending on who made them. At a mininum older SAMs had 4 connections:

Common
On Coil
Off Coil
Switch

The switch and the common connection would form the basis for the input to your encoder board. Leaving the coil connections unconnected would give you a manual stop switch. Some SAMs have a separate common for the coils and the switch. You'll need to look closely at the SAM to determine how it's set up. Could you post a picture? This document https://midiworks.ca/index.php/support?set_category=29&set_article=draw-knob-schematics shows the schematics for several common SAM and Drawknob arrangements.

---john.
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby TomBentley » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:02 am

Thanks John for your help. I will attempt today to get some minutes and post a photo of the SAMS. The document you referenced me to was very informative. It looks like I could manage this even with my minimal wiring experience. I was hoping tho that the SAMS themselves were a separate unit from the actual physical tabs so I could "pay it forward" and donate the SAMS mechanism to someone on the forum who would make full use of them. I was very fortunate to have gotten this console for free and was hoping to be able to extend that good fortune with left-over parts to people who, like myself, have undertaken HW on a limited budget.

Pictures of SAMS to be posted by end of day hopefully.

Thanks again,

Tom
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby engrssc » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:44 pm

I've not found a SAMs with a removable operating assembly. Could be wrong about that as I've replaced coils in the past. Never paid much attention to the mechanics. Was "impressed" by the relative difficulty to unsolder the large (power) bus wires in order to get the unit out and onto the service bench. Always hated to "mess up" someone's masterful assembly work. :wink:

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby TomBentley » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:00 pm

Sorry for the delay. Finally got the camera working and will now attempt to upload at least a link to the SAMS I am dealing with. Again to refresh, I'd be happy to not have the SAM action, just be able to turn stop on by pressing tab down and turn off by pushing tab back up but try as I am with my multimeter I am having a devil of a time figuring out how it is currently wired and would be willing to start from scratch there. Any advise? The other option I am considering is abandoning the stop rail completely (if anybody wants it it would be free to them) and replacing that space in the console with a third manual, and adding a launchpad to handle hand registration mapping virtual stops to launchpad buttons.

Here goes with a couple of photo links:

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/TJBen ... sort=3&o=0

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/TJBen ... sort=3&o=1

Thanks for anyone's thoughts on the correct way to proceed.

PS Also considered looking into Teensy to create my own "launchpad" as a long strip of buttons above the added keyboard, but that is appearing from what little research I did to be a large undertaking -- anybody here ever try such a thing?

Thanks,

Tom
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby johnh » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:27 am

Hi Tom,

I have some SAMs that appear similar to yours. Looking at the pictures you've posted and comparing with the ones I have I've annotated your image:

Image

It looks like there are two contacts (strips from the gromets with the red insulator) that are then shorted together when you move the tab by the 'wiper' connected to the tab. So, one of those contacts is common on each tab and connected to the wire labelled common. The other contact is the individual wire for each tab.

If this is how your tabs are wired, you could connect just the switch action to a 'parallel' MIDI encoder board. You'd need to cut the common at one end and potentially cut or maybe just solder on a new wire to each of the other contacts...
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby TomBentley » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:01 am

Thanks John for your reply. Being electronically handicapped, what I am drawing from your kind and detailed reply is that: (1) the gromet with the white wire is actually the "signal" from the stop; and (2) the red wire would be the "ground/common", and (3) this would mean that I should extend each of the white wires from each stop unit to the midi encoder board (Roman Sowa's MBBS) and connect one end of the buss wire (the red wire running the length of the stop rail to the ground on the MBBS. -- Am I anywhere near a correct interpretation here? Thanks in advance for your helpfulness.

The toss up here is deciding whether to utilize the stop rail and occupy the available space on the MBBS or go with a launchpad for the stop rail function, or order additional midi encoder and keep the stop rail. I have currently used part of the 64 inputs on the MBBS to add midi to the console pistons and was planning to use a few more for the toe studs, which would create the situation of not having any more room on the MBBS to handle the stop rail. What might your thoughts on this scenario be? I play for my own enjoyment only, and not very well at that! But I'm having a lot of fun learning how all of these things on the organ actually work and slowly building up my soldering skills and understanding.

Thanks again for any further thoughts you might share.

Tom
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby NickNelson » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:44 am

Personally, I would have no hesitation in removing all the existing wiring first. It will be much easier to work out what connection does what and therefore what the options are for rewiring to a modern encoder.

Nick
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby johnh » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:26 pm

Here's the 'bare bones' version of a stop tab mechanism like yours:

Image

To compare with what you've got, the red wire is joined in common with all the stop switches and the orange wire is the individual stop switch output. Nick's idea of removing the remaining wires has merit.

If you know which tab is which tabs will be more convenient while playing than the Launchpad...
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby TheOrganDoc » Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:22 pm

A bit of a comment about these "Reisner SAM's".
The Contact Blade that protrudes from the back of the Sam,
is electrically in contact with the Frame, and care must be taken because,

Both on and off magnet coils are also Connected to that same frame. :roll:

As far as I know, this cannot easily be done
if you are using a matrix scan system. !
In the past I have and bolted a small solder
terminal strip to the back of each Sam.

Then carefully soldered a small reed-switch to the inside of each terminal strip,
I then cemented tiny magnets on each of the moving armatures, placed so that the magnet actuates the reed-switch when the tablet is on !
This is the a perfect fix for this Reisner Problem.
Most other brands of SAM's do not have this problem.

I welcome other comments on this subject,
Though I have done many hundreds of these this way!
But beware, the Coils and moving contact blade
"are definitely" common to each other electrically ! :oops:
Best wishes, Mel
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby organtechnology » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:11 pm

TheOrganDoc wrote:A bit of a comment about these "Reisner SAM's".
The Contact Blade that protrudes from the back of the Sam,
is electrically in contact with the Frame, and care must be taken because,

Both on and off magnet coils are also Connected to that same frame. :roll:

As far as I know, this cannot easily be done
if you are using a matrix scan system. !
In the past I have and bolted a small solder
terminal strip to the back of each Sam.

Then carefully soldered a small reed-switch to the inside of each terminal strip,
I then cemented tiny magnets on each of the moving armatures, placed so that the magnet actuates the reed-switch when the tablet is on !
This is the a perfect fix for this Reisner Problem.
Most other brands of SAM's do not have this problem.

I welcome other comments on this subject,
Though I have done many hundreds of these this way!
But beware, the Coils and moving contact blade
"are definitely" common to each other electrically ! :oops:
Best wishes, Mel


If the frame is grounded, what difference does it make?

BTW I have an entire rail of these tabs like the ones in John H's picture (maybe two rails) without the coils which are surplus to my needs and which I would gladly donate to your project. The catch is that either they need to be taken off the rail and carefully packed (some cost involved) or the rail has to be shipped intact (expensive). Let me know if you are interested.

Thomas
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby TomBentley » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:43 pm

Dear Thomas and Mel,

Thanks for your advice Mel and your generous offer Thomas. I think, and hope this doesn't sound absolutely crazy to anyone, but I am seriously considering abandoning the stop rail and its entirety and would also be happy if I make that decision to donate the entire rail and SAMS as is to anyone on the forum would could use them. I will have made the decision shortly.

I am very seriously considering using Arduino and Teensy, either or both, and take the time to learn the coding required to set up a custom stop rail using lighted buttons with the signal transfer via USB from either the Teensy or Arduino boards. It is a large undertaking for one of my limited experience, but after query to the PJRC forum and a quick looking at "Getting Started with Arduino" seems like a doable task with a lot of trial and error and learning of new skills -- something I hope to have time to undertake over the winter months shut in up here in Rural NY. This would allow me to reduce the overall size of the stop rail and allow for room for adding a third keyboard to the console -- something I very much wish to do. In effect I would basically be building a Launchpad all on one long strip rather than in pad form. This could also afford the opportunity to use "overlays" when changing organs used to reflect appropriate organ stops routed to appropriate buttons. It seems that the PJRC forum (Teensy forum) has many skilled users who are willing to help work out coding problems with beginners and I find it rather fascinating.

If anyone here happens to have experience with these boards and programming I'd love to hear your thoughts on the proposed project. If I happen to be successful I would of course share how it was accomplished with all on here -- if I fail -- Then a purchased Launpad would be my fallback!

I did notice when testing the SAMS with my meter that the frame of the SAM did indeed provide a ground, but I think the problem Mel suggests wouldn't be an issue if I did use the rail as I do not intend to actually use the SAMS with power attached -- just basically bypass the SAM function and have note signal and ground to Sowa MBBS == but I may be wrong about that.

I sincerely appreciate the time and effort of all who have commented here and will always be grateful for any further advice anyone might have.

Tom
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby johnh » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:58 pm

Hi Tom, If you do abandon the stop rail I may be interested. Thanks.

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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby TomBentley » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:48 pm

Absolutely John. I'm doing a bit of research regarding Teensy and Arduino then will make final decision. Only problem if the rail goes is getting it to you -- I'm in upstate ny -- near Corning, i don't know your location.

Tom
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Re: SAMS vs. Tilt Tabs

Postby joeroberts » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:07 pm

Excuse my ignorance.....
What are these acronyms?
MBBS
SAMS
Thanks...
jr
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