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New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Building organ consoles for use with Hauptwerk, adding MIDI to existing consoles, obtaining parts, ...

New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:56 pm

Hello Everyone,

I have been chatting back and forth with several forum members lately in the Amplification section about a large church project I have undertaken.

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009

I would like to pick some brains about this proposed console design....

http://www.drewworthen.com/images/HW/hauptwerk%20line%20drawing.jpg

(Please visit the link. The image needs to be much larger than the 600x600 allowed here on the forum.)

My main question, is not about the products that I have chosen (ie - I know some are going to chime in with their reasons as to why I should choose Brand/Company X over Company Y and Z - and while that's all well and good, please make your suggestions relevant to the premise of what I'm trying to accomplish here in my design.)

I want to be able to have a console that is as light and bare-bones as possible. I don't want the computer, amps, DSP Processors, etc. in the console, but rather in a locked storage room behind the alter.

I want the console to be easily moved and fairly "portable" so it can be used anywhere on the alter. My design allows for only 3 cables to be plugged in: 2 shielded Cat6 link cables (one for USB and the other for HDMI), and power. That should be easy enough, eh?

My main question: Using this MIDI / USB setup, does anyone have experience doing this sort of thing? Do you have any experience with latency issues in this type of setup? Any relevant input about this aspect of the design?

Again, if you have alternate product recommendations, I'm all ears, but please keep sales pitching to a minimum. :roll:

EDIT: I have lots of experience with the Gefen USB extenders when it pertains to standard USB functions - keyboard/mouse, video, etc. But what I do not know is how well they (or any other USB extender) handle MIDI data in terms of accuracy and speed (latency).
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Jan Loosman » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:51 am

have you considered wireless midi?
http://www.kentonuk.com/products/items/ ... ream.shtml

The whole system has imperceptible latency. Range is at least 80 metres (260 feet) outdoors in ideal conditions, or at least 30 metres indoors. The UK/EU version works on a data-only frequency which will not interfere with radio microphones.(according to manufacturer)

Regards Jan
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Re: New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby JimE » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:59 am

Hi Drew,

I have a similar set-up to what you are proposing, except mine is in the home.

I have my console in one room and the computer and amplifiers in another room.
The console has just two cables running to it. One USB and one power.

Here's the link to my build:
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12658

The pictures are out of date showing the computer next to the console. It has since been moved into the next room.

The schematic shows how I hooked mine up. Everything on the left side of the schematic plus the MOTU Microlite is located in the console. So there is just the one USB cable running between it and the computer.
Scroll down to see a picture of the two plugs out of the back of the console.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12658&start=15

My USB cable is only about 10 feet, but the theory should be the same. I have not noticed any latency issues with this setup.

Jim E
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Re: New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:09 am

Working from my design above, things have changed a bit, since I was able to purchase this Allen 314 console.

Image

I will now be using the Allen keyboards, with their original contact system, with the MGB HWCE2x Bundle 1, with the multiplexors.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/03318c_ceec9b129afb46a793a6b7e5e731edff~mv2_d_1760_2720_s_2.png/v1/fill/w_630,h_974,al_c,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/03318c_ceec9b129afb46a793a6b7e5e731edff~mv2_d_1760_2720_s_2.png

Has anyone used the MGB Midi over RS485 baluns?

Does anyone see any issue with this design?
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
dw154515
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Posts: 198
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Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby ChangedForever » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:21 pm

Drew - NICE looking Allen!!
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Re: New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Romanos » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:10 pm

Hi Drew--
I've been googling and am at a total loss to find it-- but there is a university somewhere in the US that installed a HW organ in their concert hall. I don't know if the computer is in the console or not but they do have it designed to be mobile and roll to the center of the stage or back stage for practice as well. Perhaps someone can remind us where that installation is? If we can find it you might be able to reach out to that institution to see how they managed the installation.
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Re: New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:35 am

So it has been a while since I posted this thread and am now happy to report that the project is finally moving forward. Here is a picture of the console with it's new 4th manual....

Image

The top manual is a fairly new Allen sourced from eBay. It has a much newer contract strip that I will be utilizing that the other three manuals do not have.

I have been toying with the idea of doing away with the old 1960's Allen keying matrices, but part of me wonders if it's worth replacing. If the contacts and wiring are there, why fix what isn't broken? Thoughts?

Here are some pics of these things if you aren't familiar (these photos are from an old project from years back, the ones for this console are still in place, unaltered)

Image
Image

A new face plate is being made by a local woodshop that will cover the sides of the manuals, and the top section above the new manual below the top/music lid. He is CNC routing three windows in it for mini LCD displays to mount. I'm also planning to get three more mini LCDs to identify the three expression pedals, as their functionality will change depending on the loaded organ.

Image

Exciting times!

The wiring has changed a bit as well. Rather than trying to sum the MIDI and USB's, out of fear of latency, I am going to use the MGB Midi over RS485 for all MIDI traffic, and then the USB for the touch interfaces will be on their own. This keeps the latency (even if there isn't the potential for any) at minimum.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
dw154515
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Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby johnstump_organist » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:57 pm

My .5 cents worth would be to swap the contacts for optic or reed switches. The old Allen contacts, while designed to be self wiping, will eventually oxidize/corrode and give you grief.
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Re: New Console Design Premise - Open Conversation, Please

Postby mrkniz » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:01 am

Romanos:
The university installation you were trying to find is at the University of Minnesota in Duluth--Weber Concert Hall. The organ was built by Phoenix Organs of Peterborough, Ontario, which is an authorized Hauptwerk dealer. Ken Zink
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