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TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Building organ consoles for use with Hauptwerk, adding MIDI to existing consoles, obtaining parts, ...

TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby DanF » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:55 pm

I just purchased three Fatar TP/60LW keyboards without any documentation of any kind. If there were was a single, 16-pin connector, I would understand it to be a normal diode matrix configuration. But there are two, 16-pin connectors. Is the second connector used for touch response or something? Can I use just one connector if I only need the note on/off functionality? Can I still use a standard 8x8 encoder, or do I need to purchase something specific to this dual 16-pin configuration? I was hoping to use MIDI Boutique's hwce2x (http://midiboutique.com/MIDI-encoders/hwce2x) to ensure future compatibility with what will hopefully ultimately be a stack of real wood manuals.
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby engrssc » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:31 pm

A good chance the second 16 pin connector connects to a second matrix. 2 sets of contacts for each key for touch response (velocity). A simple meter check should be able to ring them out.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby organtechnology » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:34 am

DanF wrote:I just purchased three Fatar TP/60LW keyboards without any documentation of any kind. If there were was a single, 16-pin connector, I would understand it to be a normal diode matrix configuration. But there are two, 16-pin connectors. Is the second connector used for touch response or something? Can I use just one connector if I only need the note on/off functionality? Can I still use a standard 8x8 encoder, or do I need to purchase something specific to this dual 16-pin configuration? I was hoping to use MIDI Boutique's hwce2x (http://midiboutique.com/MIDI-encoders/hwce2x) to ensure future compatibility with what will hopefully ultimately be a stack of real wood manuals.


The current Fatar TP/60LW (DF) with the red MicroMatch connectors can be connected best with a Midiboutique mkcv64smf and its provided cables. This produces a MIDI signal with velocity information. I believe that Jordan has a special cable which allows hooking it up to the HWCE series of encoders.
I think the cables are sm-df and sm-dr. and they may be designed to connect to the HWCE as you desire.

There are two complete velocity sensitive matrices in the TP/60LW one for 32 notes and another for 29 notes for a total a 61 notes. One matrix is on the lower 32 notes and the other is on the higher 29 notes. The older models had 16 pin single in-line connectors for each matrix and they are not identically wired. Some of these keyboards are also DR keyboards meaning the diodes in the matrix are reversed from the DF keyboards. The ones from Arndt organ supply are like this. I am currently in the throes of getting my mkcv96smf to work on these DR keyboards but have yet to be completely successful. The Arndt keyboards use the first set of contacts to trigger the note. This results in a shallow depression to sound the note.

Do you know the complete part number of the keyboards? If so I think Jordan can tell you which set of cables/encoder to use. to get the correct MIDI signals out of them. There is also a graphic on the MGB site that shows the DF keyboards with the MicroMatch connectors. If your keyboard does not have the red Micromatch connectors if gets more difficult.

Best of luck,

Thomas
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby DanF » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:45 pm

organtechnology wrote:
DanF wrote:I just purchased three Fatar TP/60LW keyboards without any documentation of any kind. If there were was a single, 16-pin connector, I would understand it to be a normal diode matrix configuration. But there are two, 16-pin connectors. Is the second connector used for touch response or something? Can I use just one connector if I only need the note on/off functionality? Can I still use a standard 8x8 encoder, or do I need to purchase something specific to this dual 16-pin configuration? I was hoping to use MIDI Boutique's hwce2x (http://midiboutique.com/MIDI-encoders/hwce2x) to ensure future compatibility with what will hopefully ultimately be a stack of real wood manuals.


The current Fatar TP/60LW (DF) with the red MicroMatch connectors can be connected best with a Midiboutique mkcv64smf and its provided cables. This produces a MIDI signal with velocity information. I believe that Jordan has a special cable which allows hooking it up to the HWCE series of encoders.
I think the cables are sm-df and sm-dr. and they may be designed to connect to the HWCE as you desire.

There are two complete velocity sensitive matrices in the TP/60LW one for 32 notes and another for 29 notes for a total a 61 notes. One matrix is on the lower 32 notes and the other is on the higher 29 notes. The older models had 16 pin single in-line connectors for each matrix and they are not identically wired. Some of these keyboards are also DR keyboards meaning the diodes in the matrix are reversed from the DF keyboards. The ones from Arndt organ supply are like this. I am currently in the throes of getting my mkcv96smf to work on these DR keyboards but have yet to be completely successful. The Arndt keyboards use the first set of contacts to trigger the note. This results in a shallow depression to sound the note.

Do you know the complete part number of the keyboards? If so I think Jordan can tell you which set of cables/encoder to use. to get the correct MIDI signals out of them. There is also a graphic on the MGB site that shows the DF keyboards with the MicroMatch connectors. If your keyboard does not have the red Micromatch connectors if gets more difficult.

Best of luck,

Thomas


Thank you so much for your input, Thomas! I have the red connectors. Here are two photos depicting the connectors (or at least one of them...I think they are identical?) and the sticker.

Image

Image
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby DanF » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:05 pm

engrssc wrote:A good chance the second 16 pin connector connects to a second matrix. 2 sets of contacts for each key for touch response (velocity). A simple meter check should be able to ring them out.

Rgds,
Ed


I tried a few things with the micrometer, but to no avail. There's no way these boards could be bad, is there? I mean...they're just PCBs (to route the signal) and diodes. That is literally it. I think I'm just doing it wrong...
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby engrssc » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:10 pm

Thomas gave you the correct information. I followed the line of your mention of 16 pin connectors because I have 2 of these keyboards that had been modified with actual 16 pin connectors.- 2 rows of 8 pins. The red Micro Match connectors you have are actually double row 16 pin or 32 pin, however they are configured with alternate connections making them 16 connections. So my bad, sorry. Hope that doesn't completely confuse you. :o

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby GrahamH » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:26 pm

Regarding the connecting of Fatar TP-60 keyboards to Midiboutique HWce encoders, I have cobbled together some information which hopefully you will find helpful.
You can access it here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2u8w3lv24734 ... r.pdf?dl=0

Regards

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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby DanF » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:09 pm

GrahamH wrote:Regarding the connecting of Fatar TP-60 keyboards to Midiboutique HWce encoders, I have cobbled together some information which hopefully you will find helpful.
You can access it here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2u8w3lv24734 ... r.pdf?dl=0

Regards

Graham


Thank you so much! Fascinating. So basically...the lack of reading does not mean the keyboard is bad? Again, I cannot imagine how something so simple as this could go "bad." I am thinking I just tested incorrectly.
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby GrahamH » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:30 pm

I'm inclined to agree - it's unlikely that your keyboard is "bad" - but figuring out a pin arrangement for the first time is not easy, especially if your only tool is a multi-meter.
Your easiest solution would be to buy the connectors from Midiboutique.
But if you want to do it yourself, I suggest you bite the bullet and make up a connector based on the information in my document and try out your keyboard with your HWce2x encoder, using Hauptwerk or MidiOx.
You need two lengths of 16-way flat cable, each with a Micromatch connector on one end, plus one length of 16-way flat cable with an IDC connector on one end.
Then you need a means of connecting the plain ends of the two Micromatch cables to the plain end of the single IDC cable, as per the picture in my document.
You can attach a 16-way cable-mount IDC socket to a piece of flat cable using a small vice. But I strongly recommend that for the Micromatch cables you buy a made-up connector with a Micromatch plug on each end, and cut it in half (unless you have access to a special tool for attaching the plugs to the cables).
Before I made up a permanently soldered connector, I experimented using screw-in terminal blocks to make the connections.
Unfortunately I no longer have the Fatar TP-60, so I can't tell you exactly at which corner of the Micromatch connector you will find Pin #1. But once you have identified Pins #1 and #9 on the first Micromatch plug for note 036-C, and Pins #1 and #13 on the second Micromatch plug for note 086-g#, it should be fairly plain sailing ;-)

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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby engrssc » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:24 pm

Graham's conversion was what I was referring to in my first post (above).

You may want to refer to

http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-amp/1483356-1/micromatch-16way-100mm/dp/98K5745

AMP - TE CONNECTIVITY 1483356-1 MICROMATCH, 16WAY, 100MM which is a 16 position, 4" long Micro Match cable.

Another source for the cable ass'y would be http://www.ebay.com/itm/TE-CONNECTIVITY-AMP-1483356-1-MICROMATCH-16WAY-100MM-/352000296850?

16 position Micro Match Male cable connector (alone - you need an insertion tool to connect the wire to these))
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252187093192?_trksid=p2060353.m2750.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The female on-board connector is
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252187093192?_trksid=p2060353.m2750.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Rgds,
Ed
Last edited by engrssc on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby organtechnology » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:52 pm

This is the cable you need to connect the keyboards to the HWCE.

http://midiboutique.com/accessories/sm-df

The Micro-match connectors are notoriously difficult to assemble even with the expensive special tool.
I highly recommend buying them from MGB.

Best regards,

Thomas
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby engrssc » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:23 pm

Very true regarding (normal) keyboard connection as Thomas mentioned. I my case, however, I wanted to use the velocity control feature for piano stops. Hence, as Graham says, I had to bite the bullet. Wasn't real bad, but needed the correct tool and had to build a fixture. I wouldn't want to do this many times tho.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby DanF » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:46 pm

organtechnology wrote:This is the cable you need to connect the keyboards to the HWCE.

http://midiboutique.com/accessories/sm-df

The Micro-match connectors are notoriously difficult to assemble even with the expensive special tool.
I highly recommend buying them from MGB.

Best regards,

Thomas


Thank you! I literally just now realized that the headers on the HWCE controllers are simply 8x8 for any preexisting matrix with the diodes and all. So if I am understanding this correctly, those $15 cables / boards you suggest simply convert the output of the Fatars to a standard 8x8?

Do I want the board for the upper or the lower contacts? They say the upper is activated at 10% of key travel, and the lower at 80%. This concerns me slightly because the point of speech per AGO standards should be roughly halfway through key travel. At this point I am slightly unsure of the Fatars...
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby organtechnology » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:55 pm

DanF wrote:
organtechnology wrote:This is the cable you need to connect the keyboards to the HWCE.

http://midiboutique.com/accessories/sm-df

The Micro-match connectors are notoriously difficult to assemble even with the expensive special tool.
I highly recommend buying them from MGB.

Best regards,

Thomas


Thank you! I literally just now realized that the headers on the HWCE controllers are simply 8x8 for any preexisting matrix with the diodes and all. So if I am understanding this correctly, those $15 cables / boards you suggest simply convert the output of the Fatars to a standard 8x8? YES!


Do I want the board for the upper or the lower contacts? They say the upper is activated at 10% of key travel, and the lower at 80%. This concerns me slightly because the point of speech per AGO standards should be roughly halfway through key travel. At this point I am slightly unsure of the Fatars...


That AGO standadard applies to organ keyboards not velocity sensitive ones. I do not think that the AGO has a velocity keyboard standard. If you use the top contacts you will get a keyboard with very shallow key travel before the pipe speaks. If you use the bottom contact it will be more like an organ keyboard with a deep speaking point. But then a velocity sensitive keyboard will not speak until the encoder has calculated both the note and velocity value anyway and this requires both the first and second switch to operate. The way to get 50% speak point is to use an organ-non velocity keyboard in an 8x8 matrix or 1x61 keyboards with keymux64 1x64 converters.

Best regards,

Thomas
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Re: TP/60LW documentation, pin configuration, MIDI encoder?

Postby GrahamH » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:46 pm

I have two friends, both using the Midiboutique adapter cable recommended by Thomas, namely the sm-df cables which connect to the lower (80%) contacts of their Fatar TP-60 keyboards in "straight" (non velocity-sensitive) organ consoles, and they are very happy with them.

One of them comments that, in practice, the speech point feels more like 45% than either 10% or 80%

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