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Convertible Configuration

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Convertible Configuration

Postby engrssc » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:18 pm

Looking for some genius' (meant to be plural) thinking altho already I hear an answer - no - it can't be done.

Starting from nothing (ground zero), here's the situation. All but one of the churches I'm involved with have 3 manual consoles. That is all except one which has a 2M. (All but 2 are Hauptwerks and I'm working on those to become H/W). A select, special choir is slated to do a concert in each (on separate dates, of course). The organist for these occasions planned her musical accompaniment around 3M's and I agree that's quite the way considering the music involved.

Now here's the issue, of course, that being the 2M. Now the question, Can the upper manual be split for a portion (of the music) and then be reverted back to a "complete" 61 note manual? (And visa/versa) That's where I keep hearing NO. Considering some MIDI VooDoo - and this is a bit clunky - yet. Can we use a MIDI encoder that can do a split manual and also a 2nd MIDI encoder (connected parallel to the same manual) be configured as a normal 61 note. Then, and again I'm hearing NO's, switching between the 2 encoders? Separate channels, maybe? Does Hauptwerk see this as hot switching? Dunno. BTW, the idea of rent-a-organ was off the table very quickly, something like fliers who do a touch-and-go landing.

All options are appreciated. How about selecting/switching between the 2 MIDI outputs when auto-detecting?
Not impossible to diode isolate (between 2 encoders) the keyboard contacts on the upper manual.

I should probably go with "not possible", yet - - - - (CC has made M & O do much more than this.)

Rgds,
Ed
Last edited by engrssc on Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby murph » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:23 pm

Seeing as you mention split manuals, what upper range is being used for the solo? Would a mini midi keyboard do as the 3rd? (ie 2-3 octave, mounted above the second/under the first a-la chimes kbds?)
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby engrssc » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:35 pm

I don't think there is enough room anywhere to mount a 2nd keyboard, this is a very compact console. The need for the 3rd manual is only for basically a few short passages and where these occur, very difficult to change registration.. The need would be a split at middle C.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby IainStinson » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:09 pm

Could you use the Bome Midi Translator or similar to map the lower part of the keyboard to one midi channel and the top part to a second channel?

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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby organtechnology » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:55 pm

engrssc wrote:Looking for some genius' (meant to be plural) thinking altho already I hear an answer - no - it can't be done.

Starting from nothing (ground zero), here's the situation. All but one of the churches I'm involved with have 3 manual consoles. That is all except one which has a 2M. (All but 2 are Hauptwerks and I'm working on those to become H/W). A select, special choir is slated to do a concert in each (on separate dates, of course). The organist for these occasions planned her musical accompaniment around 3M's and I agree that's quite the way considering the music involved.

Now here's the issue, of course, that being the 2M. Now the question, Can the upper manual be split for a portion (of the music) and then be reverted back to a "complete" 61 note manual? (And visa/versa) That's where I keep hearing NO. Considering some MIDI VooDoo - and this is a bit clunky - yet. Can we use a MIDI encoder that can do a split manual and also a 2nd MIDI encoder (connected parallel to the same manual) be configured as a normal 61 note. Then, and again I'm hearing NO's, switching between the 2 encoders? Separate channels, maybe? Does Hauptwerk see this as hot switching? Dunno. BTW, the idea of rent-a-organ was off the table very quickly, something like fliers who do a touch-and-go landing.

All options are appreciated. How about selecting/switching between the 2 MIDI outputs when auto-detecting?
Not impossible to diode isolate (between 2 encoders) the keyboard contacts on the upper manual.

I should probably go with "not possible", yet - - - - (CC has made M & O do much more than this.)

Rgds,
Ed

Does the music permit you to swap (float) the manuals so that the Choir & Great become the Great & Swell using one or two pistons? I do not see the need to swap half a manual. Is it due to coupling or what?

Thomas
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby engrssc » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:16 pm

IainStinson wrote:Could you use the Bome Midi Translator or similar to map the lower part of the keyboard to one midi channel and the top part to a second channel?


That's kinda what I had in mind. Looking to see what comment Martin might make.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby murph » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:28 pm

I was thinking of something like this:
https://www.thomann.de/ie/miditech_i2_mini_32.htm

Should fit anywhere.
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby engrssc » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:30 pm

organtechnology wrote:Does the music permit you to swap (float) the manuals so that the Choir & Great become the Great & Swell using one or two pistons? I do not see the need to swap half a manual. Is it due to coupling or what?


The phrases in the music are an "echo".effect. In other words, if we would split a manual\, both hands would be on the split manual with the left hand echoing the right hand and immediately after would need both hands on the lower manual for a full ensemble.

(Right hand plays - left hand answering each with a different registration) etc.Also both feet are playing counter melodies at that same time. Sounds real neat on a 3M. One busy organist. Not sure I could do it. And the cream on the pudding is at that point, the SATB choir is singing 8 parts. 1st and 2nd sop, 1st and 2nd alto, etc

As I see it, setting up a split is not a problem. .You set up the lower split by the lowest note 00 and then the highest note of the lower split - middle C for instance. With Roman Sowa's boards, -"To turn off the split, simply set the highest note beyond the connected key range.". It's that last part I'm trying to figure. Obviously you can't do something like that during a live concert.

Thinking of a MIDI Solutions Merger (2 MIDI in, 1 MIDI out) with the inputs switched by a MIDI controlled relay as a hardware "solution". One MIDI in being the split encoder and the second input being the 61 note encoder. Definitely not adhering to the KISS principle.

Rgds,,
Ed
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby mdyde » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:26 am

Hello Ed,

I think you might actually be able to do it within Hauptwerk, except (significantly) that you wouldn't be able to have the lower half of the upper manual change its octave transposition when flipping between its two destinations:

- Auto-detect the complete pedalboard, complete lower manual, and top-half (only) of the upper manual to their desired divisions in the normal way (assuming it was the lower half of the upper manual that you wished to swap dynamically, for example).

- Auto-detect just the lower half of the upper manual to one of the floating divisions, then set that floating division up with two routes: one to its normal destination (corresponding to the same virtual division to which the upper half is auto-detected), and one to its 'echo' division destination. Make sure that that the floating division's 'key shift' setting is zero, so that there is no break between the two halves when it's routed to its normal division. However, that also inherently means that you would only be able to play the bottom half of the 'echo' division, which might possibly be a significant limitation (unless you could manage by using higher pitched stops and/or an intramanual octave coupler on that division).

Apart from that, you would need to find some external MIDI hardware/software method. I agree with murph that a miniature MIDI keyboard would be the best and simplest solution, if at all feasible, especially if it's only needed for one piece of music.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby engrssc » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:28 am

In any case, I have some work to do. Also a short amout of time as this concert series doesn't start until June. Officially I haven't committed anything, but it's a thing with me not to pass up a challenge. And when all is said and done, I'll be able to sleep again. :o Do appreciate all the thoughts thus far.

The setup with the 3M is the choir manual uses a 4' registration (for the left hand which sounds as an 8' register), the swell manual uses a (different) 8' registration which is a normal way. The idea of the spit (on the 2M) was to make it easier for the organist as she would use the left split in place of the 3M choir manual and use a 4' stop (on the 2M left split) so effectively there is no octave transfer when (and if) the split can be made to go away when it is not needed. So for the organist, using the 2M all she would do is play the left hand part on the upper manual lower split. At least that's what I'm hoping to do.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby engrssc » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:46 pm

Update. After services this AM, we did some local brain storming with interested participants. First we tried the easiest solution, that being a small compass miniature keyboard. It could be made to work if only single notes were to be played. But in this case, multiple harmonies in both left and right hands are called for. Our organist really tried to do the fingering need, just didn't work. Not sure about the feasibility of an external 3 octave keyboard with standard sized keys So that idea, for now bit the dust.

I'm going to write to Roman Sowa to see if he has any ideas, esp if there might be an easy way to cancel a split as we are using his MIDI boards

Now a new thought, given the need for registration changes that I haven't really brought into the picture yet. (This "special song" is only one of the many to be performed).

The approach would possibly require using a 4 manual sample set (similar or parallel to Martin's idea for using a floating division.) Assignments would be lower manual as manual 1, complete 61 note upper manual as manual 2, left split of the upper manual as manual 3, , and the right split of the upper manual as manual 4.

We would have to set certain c/a buttons to do multiple tasks using diodes to isolate these various functions. Pressing any manual 2 c/a button would do a (general) cancel of manual 3 (left split) and manual 4 (right split). There may be an easier way to do this, but I would do a division cancel by setting the last c/a button of that division to no (zero) stops drawn and use a diode from any manual 2 c/a to do that "cancel".function by activating that last manual 3 and manual 4 c/a button(s) - no stops drawn. BTW, it would be easy to do a cancel with Roman's LITSW boards controlling the c/a, but this organ doesn't use those boards.

To simplify the control, assign a single c/a button to first cancel all manual 2 stops (complete 61 note upper manual) as well as draw a given registrations for both manuals 3 (left split) and manual 4 (right split). This single c/a button would effectively cancel any registration of the upper complete manual (2) and set up a predetermined registration for manual 3 (left split) and manual 4 (right split). If there were a need to make changes for manuals 3 and 4, (which right now isn't the case) we could use a general for that.

So if this works, it would be relatively intuitive and reliable, yes? I think if I read Martin's reply, we could sub the floating division in place of manual 2? In that case we could use a 3M sample set in place of a 4M sample set. The more we get into this project, the more I see possibilities. This was dropped on me only 3 days ago. What makes me "nervous" is the timing. The concert is scheduled to begin at 2 PM and local morning services are over at noon. While the 2M is MIDIfyed and uses Hauptwerk, the computer being used there would be maxed out and not capable for these special tasks That leads me to think in terms of using a separate, ready to go, proven computer setup. That idea has certain risks and I don't feel esp comfortable making a swap in that short amount of time. Not going to explore ideas about setting this separate computer there a week or so previous. That has it's own set of circumstances. (Not being negative, but the local (for the 2M) organist is quite new and not very experienced). First want to make sure about the how to do it part.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby johnh » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:58 pm

This should be a two evening project in software using virtual MIDI cables. Or maybe just use MIDIOX.

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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby organtechnology » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:40 am

I think it may be Ed's ambition to set up a problem this forum cannot solve. 8)
I don't think it is going to happen........

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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby engrssc » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:52 am

organtechnology wrote:I don't think it is going to happen.......


O Ye of little faith :roll: :wink:

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Convertible Configuration

Postby mdyde » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:42 am

Hello Ed,

I think I'll have to leave you to experiment with this one yourself, I'm afraid. As John mentioned, you could potentially configure any behaviour you might want by using MIDI processing/scripting software (Bome's MIDI Translator, or perhaps MIDI-OX) between the console and Hauptwerk.

It does all seem a remarkable amount of complexity and work to undertake for a single passage in a single piece of music on one occasion, though! (I still think that adding a third physical keyboard, e.g. a good-quality three-octave model with full-sized keys, would be by far the best option, if at all logistically possible.)
Best regards,
Martin.

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