Search:
Submit Search


What kind of SAMs are these?

Building organ consoles for use with Hauptwerk, adding MIDI to existing consoles, obtaining parts, ...

What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby Opus1954 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:43 pm

Hello,

Finally I got my hands on some SAMs from an old console. But... no manual :-)

I would like more information... Who made these? Are these any good for Hauptwerk? 12v or 24v?

Many thanks!

Frank

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
Opus1954
Member
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Langley, BC, Canada

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby NickNelson » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:39 am

From the style of the knobs, and the general construction of the solenoid sections I'd say they were
almost certainly Kimber Allen, but old ones.

If they work at all, they should be fine for HW.

I would take one out altogether, clean it up, and get at it with a multimeter to identify the connections and resistance of the coils.

Nick
User avatar
NickNelson
Member
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:31 am
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby NickNelson » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:42 am

I'd say it's pretty obvious that the two connections at the bottom of the first pictures are the switch contacts.

Nick
User avatar
NickNelson
Member
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:31 am
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby Opus1954 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:23 pm

Thank you very much for the reference. I am checking in with Kimber Allen.
Frank
User avatar
Opus1954
Member
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Langley, BC, Canada

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby ppytprs » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:38 am

They are old Kimber Allen ones, yes. I've used these in a HW console. They were a nightmare. Never again!
ppytprs
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:07 pm

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby NickNelson » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:13 am

ppytprs wrote:They were a nightmare. Never again!


Interesting. I'd expect the 'switches' to be very unsatisfactory at low voltages, were there other difficulties?

Nick
User avatar
NickNelson
Member
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:31 am
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby Opus1954 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:27 pm

Ppytprs,
Could you please share what you mean by nightmare? If you faced challenges unsung KA sams, knowing the details would be extremely important to me, and perhaps useful to other forum users.

With thanks, Frank
User avatar
Opus1954
Member
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Langley, BC, Canada

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby ppytprs » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:11 pm

The main problem with these is that the solder tabs are on the side not the top. So you can't solder them when they're in place. So you have to take them all out, solder them, and put them back. So then when a wire comes loose or you get a problem with a switch, you can't easily rectify it.
And yes, the switches aren't very good either.
ppytprs
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:07 pm

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby Opus1954 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:16 pm

Thanks for that explanation. I can work with soldering and wires. But what do you mean by "the switches are not very good either"? Do the break down, stop working over time, work intermittently? I would like to anticipate before I decide to put them in :-)
Thanks again! - Frank
User avatar
Opus1954
Member
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Langley, BC, Canada

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby rayjcar » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:48 am

As a suggestion, try modifying the SAMS by removing the two spring contacts. Glue a strong earth magnet disc to the top of the slider protrusion which was used to short the spring contacts. The link below points to magnets which are 3mm in diameter.

https://boardwalkbuy.ca/products/100pcs ... magnet-set

Solder a reed switch to position it above the centre of the disc when the stop is pulled out. There are several offerings on ebay that would cost less than 50 cents each in quantities.

I can't vouch for the strength of this type of magnet being sufficient to actuate the reed switch, but at these prices it won't cost you much to give it a try. If successful, the cost of conversion per SAM will be less than 75 cents.

Ray
rayjcar
Member
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:56 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby NickNelson » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:15 pm

Opus1954 wrote: But what do you mean by "the switches are not very good either"? Do the break down, stop working over time, work intermittently?


Yes, all of these. Principally because they will be silver plated wires which inevitably tarnish over time. The old high voltage switching systems tended to introduce an element of self-cleaning, but modern 5V switching won't do this.

Ray's suggestion to replace the open switches with reed relay capsules should work just fine.

I can't see clearly in the pictures, but the rather complicated looking arrangement of bent wires on the other side to the switches may be some sort of 'toggle' spring which would keep the shaft pushed to one end or the other once the solenoids have pushed it 'over the hump' so to speak. If this still works well I'd leave it alone.

More modern KS solenoids use an opposed magnets system to achieve the same end. The moving magnet is used to switch the reed. This could be replicated but would be complicated to get right.

Nick
User avatar
NickNelson
Member
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:31 am
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby johnh » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:32 am

NickNelson wrote:Yes, all of these. Principally because they will be silver plated wires which inevitably tarnish over time. The old high voltage switching systems tended to introduce an element of self-cleaning, but modern 5V switching won't do this.


Of course there are encoders that are designed to work with these older contacts, they just cost more! :lol: Companies like Peterson, Classic Organ Works, Syndyne, etc make products that have to work reliably in these environments. And yes, the the voltages switched are usually in the 12 - 24 volt range.

---john.
User avatar
johnh
Member
 
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 7:51 pm
Location: Monterey Bay Area of California

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby engrssc » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:46 am

You could use (one per) (12 or so volt) relays operated by the existing switches (perhaps if they work) and use the relay contacts to operate an encoder. A little clunky, but it could work.

Rgds,
Ed
User avatar
engrssc
Member
 
Posts: 5071
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby ppytprs » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:35 am

Before getting too carried away with complicated modifications (I thought the reed switch one was the best by the way), these switches will work, they just won't be as reliable as other methods. The organ that I did was 30 or so stops. When I delivered it to the customer, all but one were ok, and that last one was a bit intermittent. I was hoping that with regular use, it would come good. I've never had a call to go back to it, so either it does work, or the guy doesn't care!
ppytprs
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:07 pm

Re: What kind of SAMs are these?

Postby Opus1954 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:51 pm

Thanks for everyone for responding. This give me a good overview. And I am warned :-)

I will start with testing these units, and cleaning the contact parts for sure, and then give it a try. I contacted the manufacturer and they recommended 15(16) volts. I could add some new units as well (I need more than I got).

In due time I will add a reply with an update on using these.

Frank
User avatar
Opus1954
Member
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Langley, BC, Canada


Return to DIY organ consoles / MIDI

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests