HW/MIDI vs Conventional combination action

It's time to start planning (and funding) for the next phase in my hybrid project at Zion:
Building/Restoring a 3-manual Skinner replica console.

The plan [now] is to use all new Syndyne moving drawknob assemblies for stops and SAM tablet rockers for couplers, etc.
But as for the combination action, there is [at least] two different approaches:

1. Buy a conventional pipe organ combination and keying system - and install as-is if there were only the wind blown pipes. Of course the electronics would have full MIDI capabilities. In this scenario we basically install a pipe organ and the pipe organ's electronics drive/control Hauptwerk so far as keying and stops control. This also ensures (?) having a usable - 8 rank 1M plus Pedal - instrument in the event of HW/computer/audio failure.

2. Buy MIDI boards, etc. to drive the moving drawknobs and couplers, and let HW control all the combination action - as well as the keying action for the direct-electric solenoids in the wind chests. In this scenario, HW is pretty much in control of the whole organ.

I have a number of questions and concerns::
I've heard that a MIDI implemented combination action can be slow. For example if the G.C. piston is pressed when 30-50 stops are drawn, the movement of the drawknobs and couplers would not be instantaneous as with a pipe organ, but rather "machine-gun-like". True, or False ?

How many pipes can HW drive using MIDI out, while also controlling drawknobs and couplers? We will only have 519 D.E. magnets, but there will be 50 some drawknobs and and the usual assortment if Skinner couplers.

I want to showcase Hauptwerks capabilities as much as possible, but not [if] at the expense of having a first class console.

P.S. I have done a minor update to the HW PC at Zion, so it is now Quad-Core 2.66GHz, 8GB RAM.

I've heard that a MIDI implemented combination action can be slow. For example if the G.C. piston is pressed when 30-50 stops are drawn, the movement of the drawknobs and couplers would not be instantaneous as with a pipe organ, but rather "machine-gun-like". True, or False ?

Hi, Bob. Each MIDI event is as few as 3 bytes (or about ~1ms), so even with 30-50 stops, MIDI won't be the bottleneck. It's really up to the MIDI decoders as to the timing. In my case, I have 167 SAMs and a power supply that might only be able to drive half that number at once. So I have to move them in batches in extreme cases. Even with the more typical smaller population of SAMs to move, I only energize one additional magnet every few milliseconds; this choice reduces the overall electrical transients and smears out what would otherwise be one big "thunk" sound. But no, it's not "machine-gun-like", and it's plenty fast.

If it were up to me, I'd lean towards making HW control everything. It's much more cohesive that way.

I would recommend a traditional pipe organ relay/combination action (like Artisan) and use HW as a box of ranks. You can mix ranks from different libraries (many if not most licenses allow this). If touchscreens are to be the user interface, then HW acting as the relay makes perfect sense.

Joe Hardy

I would recommend a traditional pipe organ relay/combination action (like Artisan) and use HW as a box of ranks. You can mix ranks from different libraries (many if not most licenses allow this). If touchscreens are to be the user interface, then HW acting as the relay makes perfect sense.

Just to be perfectly clear...

The console will have 3 manuals, 52 moving drawknobs, and about 14 SAM tablet rockers.
The sample library is 100% E.M. Skinner.
There will be 8 ranks of wind-blown pipes controlled by Direct Electric solenoids:

16' Bourdon (44 pipes)
8' OpenDiapason (73 pipes)
8' Stopped Diapason (73 pipes)
4' Octave (73 pipes)
4' Rohrflute (73 pipes)
2-2/3' Twelfth (61 pipes)
2' Fifteenth (61 pipes)
Mixture III (183 pipes, 61 D.E. magnets)

If I go the conventional combination action route it will be Syndyne.
If I buy MIDI decoders, I assume I could get what I need from Midiboutique. I already have MIDI encoders (HWCE) from Jordan and I am quite pleased.

Another question I have is:

If I use HW to drive the pipe action for 8 ranks, do I need to use up eight MIDI-Out channels?

do I need to use up eight MIDI-Out channels

Not necessarily, although that would work if you have 8 outputs available.

Looking at some of the decoders at MIDI Boutique, they have buffered MIDI Thru ports, so you could daisy chain two or three decoder boards from a single MIDI output.

Alternatively, you could use a splitter, such as this one.

If I go the conventional combination action route it will be Syndyne.
If I buy MIDI decoders, I assume I could get what I need from Midiboutique. I already have MIDI encoders (HWCE) from Jordan and I am quite pleased.

I suggest you research this before plunking down your hard earned money. If you want real solenoid drawknobs and SAMs, you will be far better off with a real relay. You could contact Red Carlson or Mark Anderson at Artisan and discuss your project. They are honest folks. http://www.artisanorgans.com/.

Joe Hardy

I will Joe. Thanks.

I've looked into Peterson, SSOS, and Syndyne. But frankly, for some reason I was turned off by Artisan's website. They struck me as being more for the hobbiest. But perhaps I got the wrong impression.

I will call them. I like the fact that they (like Syndyne) - are local.

I would like to add my recommendation of Artisan. Their tech support is outstanding--their tech number seems to be to the tech's actual cell phone!! I am using their equipment to connect my 3 Manual Hauptwerk midi console to my 15 rank winded pipe organ, a very similar situtation to yours.
James

Having a pipe organ and adding Hauptwerk, I have a 32 memory Peterson combination control and have no plans to change it. This would be my preference vs MIDI control. I think Syndyne is a good company also. Down the road I want to go to 3 manuals, but this 2 manual Klann console I paid $750 with Peterson SAM's and CA control is perfect for now. I'll probably use the control even when I upgrade to drawknobs.

Eric