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Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Buying or building computers for Hauptwerk, recommendations, troubleshooting computer hardware issues.

Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby organplayer » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:27 am

Hello together,

After installing the Windows 10 Fall Creator Update on the Hauptwerk PC, I have the following problems.

- The ending of Hauptwerk (File, Exit or just closing the Hauptwerk Window) suddenly takes a very long time (in the range of 10 seconds or more).

- Just switching to another organ (load organ) also takes a very long time (more than 10 seconds). I don't mean the loading time itself, which then goes just as fast as it used to, but the time until the loading of the other organ actually starts which happens immediately before the update. Sometimes in the Hauptwerk-Windows appears the message, that the program is not more connected. Then I have to wait, wait until it starts loading the other organ.

I did not change the configuration of the PC or anything else, only the update was installed.
Does anyone else have this or similar experience with the Fall Creators Update?

regards,
organplayer
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby mdyde » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:33 am

Hello organplayer,

[Topic moved here.]

When unloading an organ (which will also happen when you exit Hauptwerk with an organ loaded, or if you switch organs), Hauptwerk just asks the operating system to free the memory that the previous organ was using. From your description, presumably Windows is now taking more time to do that on your PC, for some reason. (I haven't tried the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update yet myself.)
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby organplayer » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:40 am

Hello Martin,

Yeah, that's exactly my guess, too. Apparently Microsoft has changed the memory management considerably or it is simply a bug. We have found a lot of information that there are still significant problems with the new update (which hopefully won't affect Hauptwerk).

The considerable time needed to change an organ is problematic for us, because the students are to practice the same piece, for example with an organ with a lot of reverb and another with little reverb. They should learn to adapt their playing style to the acoustic situation they find in different churches. It is of course advantageous if the organ is changed very quickly.

I'll wait and see if other Hautpwerk users report problems after the Windows update. We may have to go back to a previous version of Windows. But I don't want to do that, because in the case of Fall Creators Update some good security features have been implemented. For special reasons, our PCs must have a permanent connection to the Internet and you can't be careful enough.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby mdyde » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:08 am

Thanks, organplayer.

Hopefully Microsoft will fix or improve it soon.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby jbittner » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:50 pm

My Hauptwerk machine just updated to Version 1709 Build 16299, aka "Fall Creators Update."

I'm not seeing any changes or issues in Hauptwerk loading or unloading times.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby Timo » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:15 am

I also got Fall Creators Update and found two problems:
- Some scheduled tasks won't start (especially the ones that should start at startup).
- I have two screens. One with touch screen for consle and another without thouch screen for status display. Now when hitting the first screen, the pointer moves to the second screen. Looks like now the touch area has been scaled out to cover full desktop.

Because of the latter one I revoked the update to the spring version and now everything is working fine. Maybe I'll try later on if the issues become fixed.

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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby jkinkennon » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:51 pm

I've observed the slow release of memory with Windows 10 since I got a console running again back in about February. It's not new with the Fall Creators Update at least in my experience. Goerlitz with 70+ GB of RAM utilized takes more than a minute to unload and release the memory. No idea why. I'm currently running the 17035 release and am still having the issue. I'll see if I can find my first post on this subject...

For someone who switches sample sets frequently this would be a big problem. I use one of two sample sets so I get by well enough.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby murph » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:26 pm

jkinkennon wrote:I've observed the slow release of memory with Windows 10 since I got a console running again back in about February. It's not new with the Fall Creators Update at least in my experience. Goerlitz with 70+ GB of RAM utilized takes more than a minute to unload and release the memory. No idea why. I'm currently running the 17035 release and am still having the issue. I'll see if I can find my first post on this subject...

For someone who switches sample sets frequently this would be a big problem. I use one of two sample sets so I get by well enough.



That's not a win10 problem. The same applies to win7. Once you go over 64Gb ram usage, it takes an age for windows to flush it out. I've learned to live with it.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby jkinkennon » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:03 pm

I can hardly wait for the first experiences with the new Intel i9 computers. Back when we began going over 64gb of RAM there was discussion about the Intel i7 chips being spec'd to handle 64gb only, but with 128gb motherboards we found that they worked -- with that nagging problem of the sluggish release of memory. Now that the i9 chip is spec'd for 128gb of RAM it will be interesting to see I'm the issue goes away.

Meanwhile, if anyone is running Xeon chips with Windows and Hauptwerk it would be interesting to know if it takes a long time to unload an organ sample set -- like around a minute to unload more than 64gb.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby murph » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:57 pm

That's what I was referring to. I've got a Z800 with 96Gb ram, 2 x X5675 xeons.
Once a set uses over 64g ram, it takes ages to flush the ram. As Goerlitz seems to be the only set that goes over the 64Gb threshold, I'm not too worried at the moment.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby jkinkennon » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Good to know that the Xeon machine does the same, or I suppose that's good news. I've complained about the issue to the Windows Insider group a couple of times but have had no response. So far as going over/under 64gb I don't see the dramatic difference as it takes my machine 40 seconds to unload just 18gb. That surprised me -- it's about the same as my load time from an M.2 SSD. I may recheck those numbers as it doesn't sound right. The sample set was the new Salvia surround set at 20-bits without most of the action noises.

I believe I'll try going back to 64gb RAM sometime and see if it's the total RAM that causes the issue as opposed to the size of the sample cache. I can squeeze some version of Goerlitz into 64gb as a test. Probably just omit the rear channels or change to 20-bit depth.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby MrNhanduc » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:02 am

I don't think the i9 series will be faster with unloading RAM. The high-end Intel processors are essentially Xeon processors on steroids. So no surprise to me that workstation PC's with Xeon's also take a long time. It's more a software issue than hardware, I would guess. (also, for like 99% of people, I would not recommend an i9 since they cost a fortune and you will not notice the difference with i7 in most cases).
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby organplayer » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:25 am

When I started this thread, it was only a subjective feeling that after the Creators Fall Update, leaving Hauptwerk and switching to another organ became much slower. Now I measured it and then restored the previous version from a backup. The result: With Creators Fall Update takes 4 times as much time. For me, it's clear that something has changed a lot in memory management. It is also possible that the previous Intel chipset driver does not match the new Windows version. Whatever and whatever. It's pretty messed up. Therefore, I will not use the Creators case update for the time being.

I also have no great hope that the problem will be solved. There are only very few programs where such huge amounts of data are loaded into the memory (I don't know any of them). Therefore, most Windows users do not experience this problem.
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby mdyde » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:52 am

MrNhanduc wrote:(also, for like 99% of people, I would not recommend an i9 since they cost a fortune and you will not notice the difference with i7 in most cases).


I don't have one myself (although I do hope to get one at some point in the future), but when future versions of Hauptwerk have been compiled with native i9 (AVX-512) support, I would hope and expect that you would actually see a big gain in performance (especially polyphony) with an i9 (AVX-512) above an i7 (AVX), in particular because AVX-512 has twice the number of CPU SSE registers, much faster CPU cache transfer (and also because of the wider registers, although that would only benefit significantly for certain operations).
Best regards,
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Re: Problems after installing Win10 Fall Creators Update

Postby MrNhanduc » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:20 am

Hi Martin,

that's very interesting news. I hope this will in particularly benefit the loading process? That's where I see most bottlenecks, especially when using NVMe SSD's. Polyphony is not really a problem with the current i7's. (or at least, i never hear someone complain about it)...

But w'ere offtopic now...
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